Difference between liberal arts college and national research college/university?

Parents Forum
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<p>And LOL, jnm-- the research skills I used at my large U grad school were learned and developed at my small LAC undergrad! And fwiw, I did a research project/honors thesis in undergrad. I presented my proposal to the department, it was approved, and all the necessary materials/supplies/animals/special diet, etc were purchased by the LAC for me. The research I did in undergrad was all my idea, whereas research I did in grad school was, though also my idea, somewhat of a springboard off other research being done in the dept. However, I collected all my own data-- didn’t use data already collected from other projects. </p>

<p>In the gazillion years since I attended undergrad and grad school, grant/research/training funding has become a big, BIG problem. I would guess that the schools with the big endowments might have an edge over the schools largely reliant on state funds and research grants, though this is supposition.</p>

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<p>Thanks so much for starting this thread; very timely for me as D2 is just starting the process. She came home from HS with a sheet the counselor had given her to help the kids start thinking about making a list. One of the points was Liberal Arts v. University. We discussed it and what the counselor had said, while not “wrong,” wasn’t exactly clarifying.</p>

<p>Smithie: I pulled up your post this morning & had D read it over her Cocoa Krispies. Definitely made LACs v. uni’s a little clearer :)</p>

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<p>Well, now I’m TOTALLY confused, because now I don’t know where the heck your allegiances lie…:)</p>

<p>Good point in that now, another facet that HS parents have to factor in is gauging the relative financial strength of the prospective school moving forward! You’ve probably been reading about UW-Madison, where D2 attends. Two years ago, even OOS it was a pretty good value comparatively. But with the new state budget, I can expect a 10% per annum increase, with some programs cut, hopefully not in my D’s department. And the international pub doesn’t help, with each side entrenching further.</p>

<p>This is only one example, albeit an exaggerated one, of what is happening to higher ed with the economic downturn. Are LAC’s–chiefly the ones with healthy endowments-- going to be better off? I honestly don’t know…</p>

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<p>upstatemom, don’t overlook the resources a Smith student gets through the 5-college consortium. UMass alone is larger than NEU. The 5 colleges together must offer many more courses than NEU does.</p>

<p>NEU does not have a single College of Arts & Sciences. Instead, it has a College of Humanities & Social Sciences; a separate College of Science; a College of Arts, Media, & Design; a College of Business Administration; etc. Do you clearly understand the relevant cross-enrollment, distribution and credit rules (if any)?</p>

<p>Smith may not grant credit for everything your D would want to take in the consortium. However, it does seem to have a good internship program.
[Smith</a> College Career Development Office (Praxis)](<a href=“Lazarus Center for Career Development | Smith College”>Lazarus Center for Career Development | Smith College)</p>

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<p>Well, see, jnm, its that critical thinking, to think outside the box, to question and explore all facets of a problem learned at the LAC that helps feed this discussion :)</p>

<p>This isn’t about an “allegiance” to a LAC or a Big state U. Many of us, not just me, have had experiences at both, or might have taught at both, etc. Funding is a big concern these days. A good friend is now the cairperson of my grad training program (at a big state U). He was told he had to cut a million dollars from his budget :eek: How can one do that without severely affecting the training program, opportunities, faculty, etc. I simply cannot imagine. The endowments at the LACs and private U’s with big coffers have certainly been hit hard by the economy, though fortunately the market is seeming to improve. State and federal grant and training funds are now a growing problem… These variables will always be a bit of the unknown in the college selection process. An ongoing moving target…</p>

<p>As an aside, based on what older s said were his criteria when he looked at colleges, we looked at LACs and smaller U’s. Neither of my kids wanted a big U. Both refused to apply to our flagship state U (they called it 13th grade). Older s used flagship Tech school as his safety . And FWIW, I went to a LAC for undergrad, whereas my DH went to a state U (one you are familiar with) for his undergrad. We each had our perspectives when we had the “college talk” with our sons. Fit and cost were of course variables in this discussion, but both s’s were adament that they did NOT want a huge U. Small or mid size was their line in the sand.</p>

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<p>The difference between a university and an LAC is pretty clear when looking in the middle of each category, say UCLA vs Amherst. No confusion there. But like many concepts that seem so easily and clearly defined, the definition can get a little blurry at the borders. It can be hard to distinguish an LAC-like small university from a university-like larger LAC. It’s more of a continuum than it is a bright line border.</p>

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<p>coureur-
What LACs would you consider larger, University-like LAC? I am having trouble coming up with one. I’d consider smaller LAC-Like U’s like Rice or Tufts to fit that definition, but am drawing a blank on the LACs. Which did you have in mind?</p>

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<p>Cornell, Hopkins, and Chicago were founded as universities in the second half of the 19th century (during the so-called “Second Industrial Revolution”). Many other private, national universities (such as the other Ivies) started out in something more like a LAC form factor. The modern LACs are pretty much the remaining schools that never completed this evolution. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that most old LACs are in rural areas, and a few more (like Whitman or Colorado College) were founded in what was then frontier. The rural and frontier areas could not as easily support a modern research university. They persisted by exploiting a market niche for rich white boys and the women who wanted to marry them (that is, the social elite of rural, frontier, and small town America). LACs continue to offer an intimate alternative to the ills of modern existence that plague many large institutions (bureaucracy, sprawl, mission creep, etc.)</p>

<p>Wesleyan strikes me as a half-evolved university. A couple decades ago it beefed up its science offerings and added some graduate programs, apparently to position itself better for grant funding. Today it has the highest annual research expenditures of any LAC, by far. Rice, Brandeis, and Wake Forest are other examples of something in between (hybrids of large LAC and small university).</p>

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<p>Wesleyan (the one in CT) and Colgate are LACs that call themselves universities. Now THATS confusing. Wake Forest changed from a LAC to a University in 1967. No wonder everyone is confused.</p>

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<p>I haven’t read this whole thread so forgive me if this is duplicate information. There is a WHOLE class of schools that is omitted when you talk only of LAC or research universities. DD went to a Masters University…a university which offers a masters as its highest degree but mostly has undergrad students. The school she went to had some very obvious advantages…any research was conducted by students other than doctoral students…and most by undergrads. Her school had NO (read that NONE) teaching assistants…all classes were taught by professors. The size was modest (5000 students undergrad give or take a few). Classes were small. Facilities were outstanding and accessible to all students, not just grad students.</p>

<p>These Masters Universities do NOT get a lot of mention on this forum or elsewhere. They are not included in the USNews rankings for LACs or Universities although the Masters Universities do get ranked in a category of their own. This category is seldom mentioned when folks talk about rankings shmankings.</p>

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<p>Just one more perspective to add.</p>

<p>My son wanted a LAC in part because when he was in high school, talking to his friends a year or two ahead of him who had gone off to college already, it seemed that the LAC kids were much happier with their college experience. There is no question that an LAC was a good choice for the 17 year old kid in my house who was figuring out his application options.</p>

<p>But it wasn’t a very good place for the 20 year old he became – he ended up quitting school, working, then returning to a smaller university (I guess one that fits the Master’s University description). </p>

<p>When I compare his experience to my daughter’s and to my own large Univ. experience, I feel in hindsight that the smaller LAC’s may simply not have enough room for growth, depending on the direction that the student grows. I also had plenty of small classes and got to know many of my profs at a large university – but part of that depends on major and department. I was in a smaller department – in fact, part of the reason I chose my major was that I really liked the cozy, collegial feeling of that dept., and I had a great rapport with my faculty advisor. </p>

<p>My d. had the best academic experience of all – a perfect mix because of the Barnard/Columbia relationship. Essentially she had all of the benefits of both. </p>

<p>I think the Barnard/Columbia relationship is unique, but there are other LAC’s that are part of a close knit consortium with, and there are also some undergraduate colleges at larger universities that may give students something of the sense of being part of smaller learning environment. For example, my d. also applied and was accepted to Gallatin School of Individualize Study at NYU – since she turned down the spot, we’ve got no direct experience, but I had the sense that she would have gotten more personalized attention and more of an opportunity to connect with faculty than at NYU’s CAS. </p>

<p>Again, I think it’s best to look beyond the label – use the label to figure out what it is that the student values the most in the college, but once those criteria have been determined, look to see whether they may also exist in other, sometimes unexpected settings. Keep in mind that most large universities are made up of a collection of smaller undergraduate colleges, sometimes breaking down into more specialized environments than merely a split between the liberal arts & engineering. Visit, and get a sense of how cohesive the undergraduate experience is. Also, some larger universities offer residential experiences that will color the student’s experience – such as the residential college systems of schools like Rice or UC Santa Cruz, or special interest dorms for entering students.</p>

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<p>Augsberg College and Hope College come to mind. Both are relatively large (enrollment: >4000 and >3000, respectively). In addition to size both are U-like in that they offer Nursing degrees. Augsberg even offers graduate degrees in Nursing.</p>

<p>Holy Cross is not particularly large, but it offers an Accounting degree which also violates the definition of LAC that we were given back in post #7. Willamette even calls itself a university and has a law school and a business school to boot. Yet USNews ranks it among the the LACs. </p>

<p>I could go on. For any definition of LAC you care to make I can point out exceptions. Like I said, the definitions of LAC and university get a little blurry at the borders.</p>

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IMO, that is the tail wagging the dog. IMO schools, big and small, have plenty of room for kids to grow. But the student may need something that they dont know how to get at their school-- whether the school be large or small. That isnt the result of the school, regardless of its size. IMO smaller schools can help a student grow, as individuality and individual needs are often nurtured, whereas they may get lost in a bigger school. Food for thought.</p>

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<p>Thanks, coureur-- was not familiar with Augusburg or Hope!</p>

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<p>Some of the larger LAC’s with #of undergraduates
2,414 - Lafayette
2,854 - Wesleyan
2,884 - Colgate
2,899 - Holy Cross
3,508 - Bucknell</p>

<p>Some of the smaller Major Research Universities
967 — Caltech
1,474 - Pacific University
1,540 - University of LaVerne
2,333 - Clark University
3,262 - Rice
4,781 - Lehigh
4,248 - Dartmouth
4,299 - MIT
5,220 - Princeton
5,224 - Tufts
5,310 - Yale</p>

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<p>FYI: Hope College is ranked #88 on USNews top 100 LACs.</p>

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<p>Bucknell is a University, not LAC</p>

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<p>^^Not according to USNews.* It ranks Bucknell #30 among the top 100 LACs.</p>

<p>*Not that I necessarily believe everything that USNews tells me. I’m personally neutral on the Bucknell question.</p>

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<p><<<dusting off=“” my=“” copy=“” of=“” us=“” news=“”>>>>> Looks like Augustana, Hope, Hillsdale, St. Mary’s and Transylvania are all tied for spot # 88 on the top 100 list of this years US News…</dusting></p>

<p>OOOhh and St. Mary’s of MD-- I have heard of that-- heard very good things, in fact.</p>

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<p>I meant “growth” in terms of shifting interests, not emotional growth or nurturance – when the student develops a strong interest in something the LAC doesn’t offer, the student has a problem; or, when the student realizes that there are only 2 profs in the department of the preferred major, neither of whom share the student’s particular perspective and interest – the student has a problem. Depending on where the interests shift, that can be insoluble – you can’t major in a subject that the school doesn’t have, and it is not merely a matter of major – it can extend to other areas such as opportunities for internships, career prep, etc.</p>