URoch pros:
-open curriculum, so no required classes/gen eds (except for a writing course, much like CWRU’s SAGES)
-extremely research-oriented to a fault (but I see this as a plus)
-club tennis (apparently CWRU doesn’t offer it)
-renowned in optical engineering (not a deciding factor, but it’s something I wouldn’t mind looking into)
CWRU pros:
-a more open campus (URoch’s is too closed or “isolated”)
-University Circle
-think[box]
-pretty good research opportunities
-a lot closer to home
I really like everything URoch has to offer, but the campus seriously doesn’t resonate with me as much as CWRU’s (I’ve visited both). Weirdly enough, I prefer Cleveland to Rochester. The weather is equally as bad in both locations, so I’m not taking weather conditions into consideration. The scholarship I was offered at URoch will offset the cost difference a bit, but I’m wondering if there’s anything else unique to URoch (both positive and negative). I’m planning to go on the premed track, if that helps a bit.
**********In short:
*Am I just being picky about URoch’s campus, or does it really matter whether or not I can picture myself there?
*Should I email the admissions counselor at Case if scholarship money turns out to be a deciding factor? I’m only asking this since the scholarship money may sway my parents’ opinion.
*Do gen eds get in the way of taking premed courses or courses towards a major? And how well does URoch prepare premeds?
*According to a few people I’ve asked, CWRU and URoch tend to be regarded as very similar schools. What differentiates URoch from CWRU? What else is unique to URoch?
*Also, how are the professors at URoch?
Definitely talk with Case and let them know that they are your first choice, but that Rochester offered you a scholarship which is making your choice difficult. They will probably ask to see Rochester’s offer. What’s the worst that could happen? They decide not to offer any additional aid? And even if they do provide additional aid, it does not commit you, but can help you make a more informed decision. I’ll let others in this forum, who are more knowledgeable than me, answer your other questions.
Good luck. You have two excellent schools to choose from.
I’m very pro URoc with my son’s experience there, but I’m also very pro finding an individual fit for a student. If you feel Case fits you better, it’s still a very good school and I see no need to talk you out of it.
How well you get prepared regarding pre-med is up to you, not really the school. The school provides advising for the path. Both schools do that well.
No I don’t think you’re being picky. It’s not only your school but your home for four years. My daughter loved the “collegiate” feel of UR’s campus. That was a big plus for her. (She disliked the more urban feel of schools like CWR and BU.) But it sounds like the opposite for you. Don’t discount that.
I'm in total agreement with @lurkermom on this one. It can't hurt and it could help!
Definitely not an issue at UR. And this is where Rochester really is different from a lot of schools, including, if I’m not mistaken. CWR. My daughter started taking public health courses first semester of her freshman year. The cluster approach allows for lots of freedom and/or specialization, depending on how you want to design your college career. My daughter has a double major—one in social sciences/public health and one in microbiology. That means she has only one cluster of three classes in humanities to complete. And no language requirement, much to her relief. (As a testament to the freedom allowed by UR in terms of core requirements, most of my daughter’s friends are planning on double majoring, and several will be triple majoring. And she is going to be able to take a semester abroad her junior year, something that would have been impossible with a double major at most other schools.)
And I almost forgot—lots of opportunity for research at UR starting as soon as you get there. They do more than give lip-service to the importance placed on undergraduate research—my daughter started working in a lab the second week of school. And she is interviewing for an RA position on a public health study that would start this summer. (Keep your fingers crossed for her! )
I’ve seen statistics that suggests it’s “okay” in terms of premed prep. Many students start out thinking they will pursue med school, but I will say that the science courses are definitely not easy and my daughter is alreadyi seeing some people reconsider that route. (And she might be one of them…all of a sudden a PhD in public health looks much more appealing than med school to her.)
I don’t know much about CWR, but I do get the sense that UR’s “build your own curriculum” cluster approach is pretty unique. I know it was one of things that was key to my daughter’s decision to go there. The “Take 5” option is something else that sets Rochester apart from other schools in my mind. (@Creekland knows more about that!) I have also been very impressed by the “personality” of UR—cooperative rather than competitive learning, the tendency to give students lots of independence in creating their own education and living their own lives, inclusivity in terms of ECs and social milieu, and a slightly nerdy quirkiness that doesn’t take itself too seriously.
So far, so good. Some are better than others, of course. But my daughter has been happy with all of her professors. Of course, she’s only taken nine classes so far, so her sample size isn’t very large. One thing that I will say is that all of her professors have been very approachable and willing to help and answer questions when they come up.
@lurkermom Thanks for your input! I was thinking that as well, but it’s really reassuring hearing this from you!
@Creekland My only issue is the fact that I would be losing the advantage of an open curriculum if I choose CWRU over URoch, but you do have a point there!
@EllieMom Hmm, URoch is only “okay” for premed prep? The people I’ve talked to over there seemed to laud how well the school prepares premeds (even to the point where someone claimed that a 3.4-3.5 at URoch is equivalent to ~3.75 when adcoms look at it…? --I’m skepitical though). I’m not 100 percent sure I’ll pursue premed since I still want something to fall back on if it doesn’t work out. The freedom URoch provides is certainly one of the aspects I love about the school, but CWRU offers this integrated BA/MS program for undergrads that allows them to receive a master’s degree in four years. I’m not sure if CWRU’s curriculum is as flexible as URoch’s though, so that’s a bit of a downside.
Both schools also offer lots of research opportunities (though URoch gave off the impression that it has more, haha), but I’m not sure if I’ll be able to take advantage of the Take 5 option if I do end up pursuing med school. It does sound very nice though! I like URoch’s student body as well, and I’m not too familiar with CWRU’s but from what I’ve heard, it’s also more collaborative than cutthroat. And it’s good that the professors at URoch are approachable!
Also, what do you mean by study abroad is difficult with a double major? I plan to study abroad as well, but I’m not very familiar with the process. Could you elaborate on this a bit more?
Oh yes, and thank you for your help, and best of luck to your daughter!
@rlyoutofit You can do Take 5 and med school if you want. My guy is doing both (sequentially). If I recall correctly from a couple of years ago when he was considering the matter himself, he told me those who had done Take 5 had terrific odds for med school acceptance. That’s not why he’s doing Take 5, of course. As mentioned before, he wanted to do that from early on. It’s just a potential bonus.
@Creekland I really like the idea of Take 5, and it’s great that URoch has such a program! Does this mean your son applied/will be applying to med schools later than usual? Why do you think those who are a part of Take 5 have much higher odds of getting a med school acceptance?
Yes, you can do Take Five and still go to med school. D2’s friend did so. (He was cog sci major and did his Take 5 in European history.)
With Take 5 you’ll apply to med school during your 5th year or after graduation. This is not necessarily “later than usual” since the average age of matriculating med students is 24.6 years old. Nowadays almost half of matriculating med student take one or more gap years after college graduation before applying to med school.
Take 5 will not give you a better shot at med school admission. Med school admission is competitive. Stats and awards are only one part of it. Med school admission is a holistic process. You need the stats at a minimum, but you also need the ECs, experiences, LORs, strong interpersonal skills and excellent communication skills.
A college doesn’t prepare anyone to apply to med school. You prepare you to apply to med school. You need to take the classes & excel in them, study for and take the MCAT–and excel at it, You also need to amass the ECs and experiences needed by anyone who applies to med school. Where you go to college is just a small part of the whole picture.)
(Hey, I’ve sent 2 of my own to med school and watched/advised more than dozen others on the same journey. One of mine graduated from a state U ranked in the USN 200s; the other from UR. Guess what? They both did fantastic in med school and matched into the competitive specialties and competitive residency programs they wanted. Med school is really all about you, what you achieve, what you do.)
Will UR offer you the opportunities to prepare yourself to apply to med school? Yes, but so will nearly every other college in the country. There’s nothing magic about what it takes to be a pre-med.
This simply isn’t true. Adcoms don’t give extra GPA points to those graduating from certain schools. In the first place, adcoms are human beings and simply cannot be familiar with the grading policies of the 3000 or so colleges in the US. And secondly, the MCAT is the great equalizer when it comes to GPA.
Your GPA is your GPA. You will not get special consideration simply because you attend College A.
He is applying to med schools one year later to allow for Take 5, but honestly, even if he hadn’t gotten accepted into Take 5 he was planning on taking a gap year before applying to med school anyway. Many students do this, so I’m not sure it can be labeled “unusual.” By some reports, those who take that extra year (in general) tend to be more successful getting accepted to med school. I haven’t seen official stats though.
I suspect the Take 5 students are more successful because they have many attributes med schools are looking for - the same attributes that get them accepted into Take 5 (dedication, love of learning, decent people skills, good grades).
@WayOutWestMom Ahh, thanks for the clarification! Some of the things the tour guide mentioned did seem a bit sketchy.
So I’d assume that it’s okay to take an extra year to prepare my med school application (and by the same token, the MCAT as well)?
Just out of curiosity, do you happen to know what these people do during their gap year?
@Creekland Ohh, I see. If you don’t mind, is it alright if I ask what your son planned to do if he decided to take a gap year instead?
It’s Ok to take an extra year (called a gap or glide year) before applying to med school. The extra time gives you time to gain added maturity and life experience before starting med school. (And it gives you a breather between college and the insane workload that is med school.)
Also remember that the medical school application process takes almost an entire year to complete. (You’ll apply in the summer, but may not know if you have an acceptance until March or even July of the following year.)
What do people do during their gap years? It depends on the individual and what interests they have or whether they have weaknesses in their application portfolios.
Common activities:
full time (paid) lab research (this what D2 did)
medical scribe or other paid clinical contact job at a hospital or physician group
Teach For America/Americorps
Peace Corp
other paid employment while doing additional clinical & non-clinical volunteering
SMP (Special Master’s Program–which are grade enhancing graduate degrees for students whose GPAs aren’t quite strong enough for med school)
@rlyoutofit It’s difficult to say what he would have done as he had several options he was considering. Pretty high on his list was being a longer term volunteer at a Medical Missions clinic somewhere, so that might have been what he chose. If not, he is still loved in his research lab or he might have even bummed around here volunteering in clinics and helping his dad out with his engineering work (being a field helper as he was in his high school years).
As WayOutWestMom mentioned, his biggest thing was wanting an extra year between college and med school. His Take Five sort of does that considering he’s now mainly studying for fun, but his grades still count so it’s not 100% the same. He’s never had an issue keeping his grades up though. He’s always loved learning. It wouldn’t matter to him if there were tests/papers or not. He’s the type who just wants to learn the material to have the knowledge. Learning is fun to him.
@WayOutWestMom Does taking a gap year allow for extra time to study for the MCAT?
Also, is a gap year also an option for those who didn’t get accepted into med school during their first round?
@Creekland That’s a really good mindset to have! Best of luck to him
I don’t know that he took extra time to study for the MCAT. He took it later due to applying later (just took it this past 4/1 - apps will be submitted 6/1), but I don’t think he studied any more than he would have if he’d taken it a year ago. I believe he’s long past taking the regular classes (Bio/Chem, etc) that helped prepare him for it. His studying refreshed his memories.
I also couldn’t say that either of my daughters took extra time to study for the MCAT during their gap years. (Both were working full time; actually both were working more than full time since they both had more than one job.) And as Creekland said their basic classes science classes were long past.
The purpose of MCAT studying is to refresh your knowledge, to learn how the test format is structured and to practice your timing for the test.
There are many gap year options for those aren’t successful in their first round of medical school applications. The options depend on why they weren’t accepted in the first place.
The reasons for failure to gain an acceptance can run the gamut–poor stats, poor interviewing skills, mediocre LORs, lack of clinical experience, lack of non-clinical volunteering, poorly written PS and/or secondaries, submitting application too late in the season, not applying to a appropriate list of schools, not applying to enough schools, academic misconduct sanctions, criminal background issues, living in an “unlucky” state…There are probably as many reasons why a med school applicant gets rejected as there are applicants. Nearly all of those issues can be fixed with time and effort.
Med school admissions is a negative process. There are so many similarly qualified applicants, adcomms are looking for a reason to reject you.
My best advice is don’t apply until you’re ready. You want to apply once with the best portfolio you have. Reapplicants are expected to demonstrate significant improvement over their previous application. (And yes, adcomms will pull your prior application and compare.)
@Creekland Yup, I heard that URoch makes it very easy to get all of those required premed classes done early (I know someone who finished by sophomore year), but I’m not too sure whether I’d prefer spreading them out or just getting them out of the way. Getting them out of the way seems like an advantage, but it also seems a bit overwhelming.
@WayOutWestMom How long does it typically take for premed students to finish all of their basic science classes? Would it be possible to self-study the MCAT if I plan to get a head start? I’m planning to crack open a few prep books this summer, but I’m not sure how efficient I’ll be in studying something like biochem since I haven’t taken the class yet.
Also, I’ve been told that applying to med schools early in the season has a huge advantage over applying later even with a higher GPA (ex. 3.6 increases to 3.7) because there’s not as much competition. If this is the case, would it be better just to bite the bullet and apply early or wait until the next cycle to apply with the higher GPA?
By applying early, they don’t mean one year earlier. They mean early in the cycle for that particular year. Get your apps in as soon as the window opens, not toward the end of that cycle even if you think later grades will bump up a GPA. Wait an additional year if you want the higher GPA to count, but still get apps in at the beginning of that year’s application season. Not sure from what you wrote if this was clear or not (my apologies if it was).
Study for the MCAT before the MCAT, not before your pre-med classes (unless you aren’t taking a certain class prior to the MCAT). You can self-study, but many recommend taking a prep course. Those courses are pricey.
At any school you choose (well, any that regularly send students to med school), there will be at least one pre-med adviser. It’s wise to attend their sessions at the beginning to get a good feel for the process at that school. Then you can make an individual appt (or two) to discuss your personal plans/desires/whatever.
At UR, it will take at least 2.5 years to complete pre-med coursework without summer classes. The chem sequence is 5 semesters long. This assumes you will be taking at least 3 science/math classes/semester in your freshman/sophomore years. Whether you spread them out or bunch them up depends really on your major, your learning style, the strength of your academic preparation, your tolerance for academic overloads and how well you function under time & academic pressures. What works for Person A won’t work for Person B.
Complete waste of time to self study for the MCAT in advance of completing required coursework. Also, you face the very real risk of burning out before it’s time for your to sit for the MCAT if you start to prep too soon.
The difference between a 3.6 and 3.7 GPA is a lot. A 3.7 is an average GPA for matriculants; 3.6 puts you below average. Not where you want to be. Depending on your ethnicity & your home state, the GPA increase could mean the difference between an interview and out-right rejection.
And less competition early in the cycle—in your dreams maybe! So many med school hopefuls submit their applications in the first days the cycle opens, it often take AMCAS a month or more just to process them. The year D2 applied the application processing backlog was well over 8 weeks by the 4th of July.
By applying early–as Creekland says, that means early in the application cycle (in June through early August, instead of October) Many medical schools accept students on a rolling basis and start interviewing applicants in August. By October, 85% or more interview slots have already been given out and it becomes much more difficult to “stand out” to get one of the few interview invites left.
But if the choices are to apply in June with a below par GPA or applying in October with an average GPA, I’d say both choices are poor and would strongly recommend sitting out a year to apply so you can apply early with the strongest portfolio possible
rlyoutofit,
You have two fantastic choices. Congratulations! I agree with much of what has been said above.
Regarding the campuses, like you I give Case the edge. University Circle is a phenomenal location, and U of R doesn’t have much within walking distance. Also, at U of R I personally think all of that red brick is boring. Case has some cool buildings, and I think they are building a new student center, or perhaps adding on to it. The Kelvin Smith library at Case is one of my favorite libraries anywhere. Nevertheless, after the first week I don’t think it will matter much which campus you are on. Further, Rochester has some great things going for it, like Wegmans, biking, and some outstanding natural areas close by such as Letchworth, and the Finger Lakes. I’ve lived in both cities and over all I give Rochester the edge, although everyone is different.
We have friends with kids at both schools right now, and all have been very happy with their educations and their opportunities. The fifth year at U of R is huge. One of the U of R students we know (in optics) is finishing his 4th year next month, has a prestigious internship lined up with NASA for the summer, and will return for his fifth year in the fall.
For med school, your GPA and MCAT scores are extremely important. Each .1 increment in your GPA is huge. A 3.6 is way better than a 3.5, etc. I talk frequently with someone who is on the admissions committee for a top med school. That person is frustrated because there are many students who would make outstanding physicians, but get passed over for interviews because the GPA isn’t quite what is expected now. It is so much harder now to get in with, say, a 3.5 than a 3.75. But D.O. school can be a backup. Our D’s pediatrician, a D.O., is one of the best doctors we have known.
Even with outstanding grades and MCAT scores you’ll be facing a boat load of competition for admission to med school. Your personal statement, interviewing skills, and experiences are what will set you apart from everyone else who looks pretty much the same as you on paper. Be able to articulate passionately the reason that you want to become a physician. This is very difficult for most students to do right out of undergrad. You’ll increase your chances of success significantly by taking one or two years after graduation for research, work experience, or further study. That extra year or two of maturity counts for a lot.
Last, once you get into medical school you’ll be on a demanding track that for most students doesn’t vary much: 4 years of med school, residency, possibly a fellowship, boards, and a job. There isn’t much chance for a break. So if you want to backpack through Europe or wherever, do it before you get into med school.
Good luck on your decision!
