Dilema: Full Ride vs $140K for Prestige

College Search & Selection
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<p>With regard to the question of whether Lafayette College is “elite”: Frankly, I’d have advised busybeemom to avoid the word if she’d asked for my advice beforehand ;). Alas, she didn’t! My take on all of this is that regardless of the size of the prestige gap between these two schools, busybeemom’s knowledge of both Lafayette College and Rowan University is more intimate and informed than mine. She has indicated that these are the final schools in contention, not that they are the only two her son ever considered. Having never been to Rowan University I wouldn’t presume to say whether it would or not provide the “full college experience” (or even to understand what that is supposed to mean). Busybeemom seems to think Rowan University has much of what her S wants and needs in a school. She’s not said exactly what her son likes about Lafayette College, but I’m prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume the reason it is one of the last two schools in contention are meaningful ones. The bottom line is that busybeemom did not ask people to comment on the relative merits of these two schools but to share analogous stories. Rather than getting hung up on the question of prestige, and to stay within the spirit of what busybeemom is asking, one could instead ponder the choice between a small, selective LAC versus a solid but less selective, mid-sized state school, where both schools offer more or less equivalent training in the major. And then there’s that cost differential. </p>

<p>As I’ve said elsewhere, I’m a textbook case of irrational actor as far as monetary decisions go. I’d pay for the small LAC. Though I’d like the window decal on a nice car, please.</p>

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<p>Having never been to Rowan University I wouldn’t presume to say whether it would or not provide the “full college experience” (or even to understand what that is supposed to mean)</p>

<p>I don’t claim to know whether Rowan could/would provide the full college experience either. Maybe it can! :slight_smile: However, many/most regional publics are largely suitcase/commuter schools…which means that kids go home after class or on weekends. </p>

<p>When I use the term “full college experience”, I’m talking about the residential campus life where many kids are around all the time. These schools have weekend activities and maybe sports to watch and cheer for. These schools have kids studying in libraries on weekends and off-campus hangout for kids to get some respite/relaxation. </p>

<p>You’re right that Busymom hasn’t really said what her son really likes about LC that is different from what Rowan has to offer. If the son can’t really put anything specific into words, then it would seem that he’s leaning towards LC because his community and he perceive it to be more prestigious. </p>

<p>I know that if my kids were given the choice of a regional public and a popular private, my kids would probably choose the private every time. My kids got great merit from their undergrad school, but they got even bigger offers from lower ranked schools that lacked the full campus experience. They weren’t going to choose “more money” and end up at a suitcase/commuter school. Even though they’re the studious types, they did want some campus life with weekend activities.</p>

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<p>I just remember seeing a story on NBC a few years ago about a kid who got a full ride to University of NJ and into Harvard with nothing. He said, “I’m a smart kid, thats how I got into Harvard, do you think I want to start life 200K in debt?” I have told my S he knows grad school is in the picture, so spread what money we have out. '</p>

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<p>For the record, Rowan is NOT a suitcase/commuter school so please move on from that. Also my husband and I both went to a virtually unknown state school where we met and have done pretty well for ourselves. I so totally and completely agree with that statement elle232!!! I can certainly afford a Mercedes but will never buy one. My Honda suits me just fine.</p>

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<p>Going back to your first post:</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>The question is, why does he think that Lafayette is an “elite, prestigious” college?</p>

<p>Many here will say that it is a bad idea to spend $140,000 on prestige. But spending $140,000 on perceived eliteness and prestige that is not really there in reality is an even worse idea.</p>

<p>Are there any other advantages of Lafayette over Rowan that, in your or his view, would be worth $140,000?</p>

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<p>the title of the thread contains “$140k for prestige.” Fine, let’s say lafayette is ‘prestigious’ As busybeemom and Goldenboy seem to claim it is. Is its prestige worth $140k? No, and it’s doubtful there are any posters here that would agree it is.</p>

<p>It sounds a lot like she’s trying to imagine her son going to some big prestigious college. Alas, this isn’t the case. There are only a few dozen prestigious universities, and even fewer prestigious lacs (perhaps Amherst, Williams, Wesleyen, bowdoin, some of the claremonts, etc.) </p>

<p>It’s ironic that you pride yourself in driving a humble yet reliable car, yet are in a dilemma about whether your son should go to a “prestigious” expensive university which claims to be funded 65% on tuition. You also seemed to take offense when you were outed, like some embarassing cat was let out of the bag. Even if anyone on here was impressed with your final to choices (i’m certainly not) i doubt – highly – that anyone on here thinks you should spend 140k on “prestige” (whatever prestige there’s to be had.)</p>

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<p>Busybeemom, while I understand the original question was about prestige vs money, I would
like to bring attention to one of your later posts:</p>

<p>Attending a large university > 10,000 students is not my son’s idea of a good experience. He is not interested in football games, or fraternities, or partying…He wants to learn in small classrooms with teachers who are always accessible, and KNOW WHO HE IS. He would be absolutely miserable in a theatre sized classroom, or a huge university. That is the full college experience my son seeks, which obviously differs from what you think is your full college experience.</p>

<p>It really makes it clear then why your son prefers Lafayette. As I posted earlier, Lafayette has 2300 students who almost all live on campus (94%). Rowan has 10,014 undergraduates and all the student reviews call it explicitly a suitcase school (only 36% live on campus.) Lafayette has 638 freshmen and 77% is out of state (37 different states) providing a small but diverse student body. Rowan has 1584 freshmen and 2% is out of state. Looking at last year’s graduating class for L 19% was in engineering which means that even though it is a small school, it has a large dept since engineering was in the top 5 most popular majors of that class and it is the second most popular major. Class sizewise they are the exact opposite with Lafayette having 60% classes with less than 20 students and Rowan having 60% classes with 20+ students. Four year graduation rate is Rowan 44% vs 87% for Lafayette. </p>

<p>As others have also said the choice of specific schools is important when one chooses between prestige and $$ because the choice is different among schools. Rowan clearly has a good chemical engineering department as all the students mention this specific dept. However, overall they appear to have an average opinion about the school and do not consider it to have solid academics in the other departments. Lafayette has overall top academics, which means that all students are of equal standing, regardless of the department they are in. </p>

<p>YOU need to decide whether the important factor is the money or the environment that your son feels it will be best for his personal growth because that’s the real choice that you have to make. You say that “your son is about to decide between two choices.” Is this the real dilemma? He appears to have made his decision, “My son has stated that he feels the elite school is the one for him, where he really sees himself.” But the reality is that you had already made the decision for him before he even applied to any school when “I’ve already seen his disappointment when I convinced him not to apply to ivy league, because although he had a good chance of being accepted, ivies do not give any merit aid.” So, you precluded that prestige is not as important as money. Otherwise, you would had let him apply to any school he “thought about applying to” and not assume that he will forget that he never got the chance to even apply. Would it be different if he had to choose between Rowan and Penn? You bet it would and the $140k would worth it, BUT you did not give him the choice. Is it your son who call sit the “elite” school or you? Will it be a personal issue because you went to a “virtually unknown state school”? Do you try to justify that since you live in a community where “neighbors and classmates all going to elite, prestigious or ivy league schools. I don’t think any of them even considered a state school, even if they applied for it as a safety.”</p>

<p>There is a very different experience in campus life between a small, private school and a large state school. Not everything is about academics. The whole package is important. Since your son is a passive character, he might benefit more by a small school and the nurturing environment where almost all students live there. It is very similar to the argument on whether it is better for women to go to an all women’s college or not so they feel more comfortable to explore their abilities and they do not feel threatened and as an example they always give the fact that the overwhelming majority of women senators have all attended an all women’s school. Clearly Lafayette has many benefits, otherwise Forbes would not rank it #33 among both LACs and universities (Forbes ranks Rowan as #488). Barron’s ranked it among the top 65 “Most Competitive” colleges and universities. It ranked 4th on Payscale’s list of Top Liberal Arts Colleges by Salary Potential.</p>

<p>As you have said, “Emotionally I feel he has worked very hard and deserves to go wherever he wants.” Your son has made his choice and he has expressed it loud and clear. It is up to you whether you will allow him to attend his choice or not since as you “know we can have a strong influence on his decision” since you “are fortunate to be able to pay it due to … diligent savings from the day our children were born.” If that was the reason that the money was saved, then let your son spend it on that instead of “buy him a car, and maybe even early retirement for us.” </p>

<p>I would like to leave you with this comment by a student that seems to be the opinion that most students have about Lafayette and appears to characterize the essence of the school:
“Attracts highly qualified students, offers a unique mix of liberal arts and engineering, unusual in small, private colleges, and has outstanding facilities, as a result of sustained and generous giving from engaged alumni.”</p>

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<p>Oh Ana1…I cannot believe you stayed up so late doing research. I’m glad you’re learning but you need about two more years worth to tell me something that I haven’t already read myself. Have you visited either school? Know any students who attend there? Spoken to the faculty? Felt the vibe on campus? Looked at and read hundreds of artifacts? Or do you sadly just form opinions behind your computer?</p>

<p>Beyphy, perhaps it is you who is outed for not being a deep thinker and drawing from life experiences to be able to provide an opinion based on the statement. Instead you need an apple and an orange. But its ok because I can certainly recognize the difference between responses that are educated and those who just fluff themselves!</p>

<p>Once again, I don’t need any opinion or “facts” on either school. But it just seems some of you cannot move past that…lol.</p>

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<p>The tone of this thread sure has gone south…</p>

<p>Sometimes one word in a thread title or OP can trigger a strong response. Words like “brilliant”, “slacker”, “elite”, “prestige” and “racist” are common hot button triggers.</p>

<p>FWIW I though Anas post was reasonable and helpful. But what do I know. If the OP’s son wants to go to a LAC with small classes and close faculty interaction (which I personally think is great), go for it if its affordable. Don’t do it for “prestige”.</p>

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<p>We have had 2 kids graduate from college and both are employed (one is an engineer). It has been our experience that the only thing that matters is the last thing you did. For example, the boy in question could go to the cheaper alternative for undergraduate and do something he considers “more prestigious” for graduate school. Once he’s in the workforce, the only thing that will matter is his job performance as he moves from position to position or job to job. There are more successful people out there who didn’t go to “prestigious” schools than who did - success is more about personal attributes, along with intelligence and drive. Innovative ideas and the ability to work with others are what make people successful - not many people will ask where you got your undergraduate degree once you’re established.</p>

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<p>That was a pretty rude post. Don’t know why you think you need
2 years of college experience to match yours. You seem to pride yourself for knowing a lot about a school, and when Ana1 showed you that they now know a lot, you attacked back with a claim that doesn’t hold water. Anyway, opinions and facts about the school DO matter, because how else are you going to decide where to go and how much to pay?</p>

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<p>Busybeemom, as I stated from the start you have made your opinion and you are just trying to find justification by other parents here to support and justify your position. You went after anyone who questioned the premise of the true dilemma. Since you took the ivies out from the start and denied this choice to your son, then the question is not about prestige but money. Could it alos be because you do not want him to go away from the mommy smothering? Obviously you have done a lot of research, visited the campus and are more knowledgeable than any of us. But the facts are the facts. Yes I am behind the computer doing the research and it took less than you think to find that the students who attend Rowan consider it a commuter/suitcase/party school. The school itself provides the data about size/class size/graduation rates. We can question the methodology of USnews/Forbes, Princeton Review but they all come to the same ranking/evaluation/conclusion about the two schools. It is not some of us that can not move past opinions or facts. There are so many posters who have presented valid opinions on how they evaluate the situation you are facing. You argued against and attacked anyone who disagreed with you. Initially, I was not sure whether you were having second thoughts/guilt on how you are trying to bulldoze your son to attend Rowan, but all your posts point more that you are having opposition from son/spouse? and trying to find support here on your position. </p>

<p>As you stated yourself, “!0,000 students is not my son’s idea of a good experience. He is not interested in football games, or fraternities, or partying…He wants to learn in small classrooms with teachers who are always accessible, and KNOW WHO HE IS. He would be absolutely miserable in a theatre sized classroom, or a huge university. That is the full college experience my son seeks”
Do I have to visit the campus to get a vibe to understand the difference between the 2300 student body at Lafayette and the 10K+ at Rowan? The schools themselves report that Rowan has more than 60% of classes with 20+ students whereas Lafayette has 60% with less than 20 students. Students who attend Rowan call it a “party school” “suitcase school.” Based on “the full college experience …(your) son seeks” only Lafayette fits the requirements and Rowan is the exact opposite so yes 140k is worth it for any parent who wants his child’s happiness, if one can afford it and you have stated that you have been saving since he was born for that.</p>

<p>I hope you will show your son this thread so he can get other people’s opinion about it since we know how you feel.</p>

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<p>Ana1, I am not reading any more of your posts. From the beginning, as I initially stated, your posts are completely biased. YOUR mind was made up from the start, and you’ve done nothing but personally attack me and try to psycho-analyze me. Also, a lot of the things you post are just plain invalid. You’re opinion to choose the $140K is WELL NOTED, now please MOVE ON!</p>

<p>Thanks to everyone who gave positive, supporting, unbiased, educated advice and opinions, especially to those who drew from personal experience. I have a lot of food for thought. Good luck to everyone making decisions at this time… : )</p>

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<p>Facts are hard to face. Obviously that was the reason that you did not want to name the schools because you wanted us to form and express an opinion behind the veil of ignorance. Your comments throughout this thread make clear what your motives were for posting the original comment. You attacked everyone who has disagreed with your opinion. Each one makes their own decision on whether personal early retirement or their child’s happiness is paramount.
Nobody has attacked you. You just do not like my opinion and it is your right. You do not have to read my comments. I am writing for others who might face the same issues.</p>

<p>I wish good luck to your son and hopefully he will be able to go to the school that HE wants to attend.</p>

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<p>“Rowan is NOT a suitcase/commuter school…”</p>

<p>The school is 97% instate…that strongly suggests that it’s a suitcase school. Maybe you’re not familiar with what that term means. It means that kids live on campus during the week, and since many live instate and within a couple hours from home, many go home on weekends. But, maybe everyone lives too many miles away to consider going home on weekends? Not likely…NJ isn’t a big state. </p>

<p>If this school isn’t a suitcase school, it would likely have to offer something kind of big for kids to stay on campus on weekends. What would that be? A huge Greek system that keeps kids busy on weekends? Big sports to watch and cheer for? What?</p>

<p>It seems that you’re now bothered by the possibility that all of your research has boiled down to LC (pricey) and Rowan (probably lacking in the full college experience). Maybe you fear that if your son does choose Rowan, then he’ll regret it once he’s there?</p>

<p>I totally understand that you’re stressing about cost (you had hoped son could pay $40k without loans), and you have younger kids to put thru college. Obviously, whatever you do with the first child kind of “sets the tone” for the younger ones. Maybe that’s what’s worrying you? If you pay (at least!) $150k for Child #1, then you’ll have to do the same for Child #2 and #3. That’s going to be over half a million when you consider inflation. I can see why that would be intimidating.</p>

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<p>Ana1, you have made some reasonable points. If I were busybeemom, however, I would take great issue with your suggestion that she is a “smothering mommy” or that her son is a “passive character.” Those two comments in particular would have felt like attacks to me. Apart from those specific comments, the tone of your posts in general has been curiously aggressive, IMO. You’re making huge leaps and leaping to rather unflattering conclusions based on slim evidence. Even if I knew someone who was figuratively “smothering” her kid or thought a kid in my acquaintance was too passive, I’d look for more tactful ways to share that perspective. You seem to believe that parents who have the money should send a child wherever the child wants to go. If I’m misreading what you’ve said, please correct me. Others do not feel that way. Still others are conflicted, as busybeemom appears to be. There really are no definitive right and wrong answers here, and certainly the results are dependent on lots of factors (including the character, temperament and motivation of the student). I don’t feel there’s any call for making dire predictions, such as this one from your post #10: “Allow him to decide for himself where he wants to go as he might one day turn and tell to your face that everything was your fault and you destroyed his life.” Maybe busybeenmom knows that her child is mature enough, not to mention loving and grateful enough, that he’d never hurl such an ungracious accusation at her, regardless of how much money the family did or didn’t spend on his education.</p>

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<p>OP-
While your s may not be able to earn 8-10K/yr while in college, if he lands a good summer internship he can earn 3k/mo. Some even offer extra for transportation. If he’s entrepreneurial he can also do tutoring or something during the year and earn estra money. For this reason I would again encourage you (peferably him) to look into the schools’ ability to help him land good summer internships. Do they have strong corporate relationships? These are important factors, IMO.</p>

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<p>Absweetmarie, actually others before me wrote that the op has painted her son as passive. Reading the original posts down the mom admits herself that she is the one who has done all the research about the schools “for the past two years I have done a significant amount of research on what schools my son should apply to based on who he is and what he wanted. I would have preferred that he did that research on his own, but I guess it was easier for mom the secretary to do it for him, and I didn’t mind. He pretty much just showed up when it was time to visit another school. In the end, all of the schools that he applied to (yes there were more than just two) are a great fit for him, and he agrees. He would be happy to attend any one of them, as it should be, otherwise why bother applying to a school you really don’t want to attend,” and also “I’ve already seen his disappointment when I convinced him not to apply to ivy league,” </p>

<p>So did the son really applied to the schools that he wanted, or as the op admits “Regardless of which school he chooses, I know he will soon grow to love it, and forget about any others he applied to, or thought about applying to.” “I know we can have a strong influence on his decision.”</p>

<p>The mom claims that both schools are equal and even gets upset when it is mentioned that Rowan is a suitcase school. A simple search proves otherwise. Does the son really wants to go to Rowan? Is he really trying to make a choice? He said he wants to go to Lafayette, “he feels the elite school is the one for him, where he really sees himself.” If you see the college experience that the mom says that her son wants, Rowan is the exact opposite. The true question is not about prestige but the type of school that the son wants to attend. From the posts it appears that the son has made his decision. The mom only offers positives for Rowan trying to convince him otherwise. I have been the only person in this thread who posted any positives about Lafayette. I read about both schools and there is really no comparison, beyond the monetary issue, about the benefits that the son would get from Lafayette vs Rowan. The op just gets upset with anyone, not just me, who disagrees with her opinion.</p>

<p>I do think that if money are available and the question is whether the parent can have an early retirement or buy a new car for the kid instead, then I do value the education more. As the quote goes, “Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.” If the kid has worked hard and deserves it, without hesitation I would do my best to provide him with the best education possible.
this kid clearly “he has worked very hard and deserves to go wherever he wants.”</p>

<p>I admit that I am not always writing in sugarcoating language and I am direct and to the point and I do apologize for that.</p>

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<p>I would look to see where graduates of both these schools get into graduate schools. You would be surprised how many students get into top programs from outside the top 30 schools. Its about what research you did and want to do and which grad school prof is doing what you are interested in. </p>

<p>My son got into some top ten programs from our state U thats rated around #45. DO some research.</p>

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<p>Congratulations to your son on both counts! In the regional area, Lafayette’s program is very well regarded, and Rowan’s rep has been steadily growing. While I think that Lafayette is a much better school overall, I also know some great kids who have thrived, or are currently thriving at Rowan. Several of my DS’ friends are there now for engineering and doing well. If I could afford it, I’d go for Lafayette. My son is at a top school without any grants or scholarship aid, so that is the choice I made for him. But, having done that, I’m now worrying about paying for my second, and will have to make some harder choices this time around.</p>

<p>Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using CC</p>