Do athletes with lower scores really deserve spots at top colleges?

<p>gah, got locked out - so i was revising post 79:</p>

<p>and concoll, no, taking fewer athletes would be a paradigm shift and this does not necessarily mean it would lead to a benefit to people who just miss. to take fewer athletes means it would change the core values of the institution and have wide ranging consequences. i think pretending otherwise is not understanding the dynamics. that is why my point is that there are facts that we know and trying to presume things is rather naive. so take as fact that a certain percentage of athletes will be admitted. because otherwise you would be looking at a very different school. when swarthmore got rid of its football team the culture of students changed. when uchicago took a 30 year break in their football program, the school changed.</p>

<p>Admissions I like your phrase “core values of the institution”. If the core values are as you say and I believe they are at most ivys to have a diverse, international group of students-a school which actively recruits good student athletes thats fine. But I believe after years of doing just that ivy league schools are no longer the prestigious, academic institutions which at one time I thought was their core value. The value they have placed on intellectual ability and curiosity has diminished over time. In my opionion the only institutions that still place academics above all else are engineering schools like MIT and CalTech.</p>

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<p>It’s funny that you would say something so (I want to narrow sighted, but I don’t mean that in an insulting manner) idealistic. It’s literally impossible for a school to sustain itself entirely in the pursuit of “intellectual ability and curiosity” alone. The varsity c club is a significant contributor to the columbia community, both financially and as a form of social support outside the realm of academia. To strip away athletics to re-establish, what you believe to be, a place of prestige and learning is to strip away part of columbia’s identity. Again, I don’t mean to start a flame war, but if you honestly think columbia should return to, if it ever was, a place meant solely for academic pursuit, then you might be a bit disappointed with the true ‘core values of the institution.’</p>

<p>In addition, I personally know many athletes who are most likely leagues smarter than most everyone on these boards (and likely many of those who denounce their acceptances as nothing more than gimmes), so seeing some of these posts is more than a simple annoyance to me. I guess my point is (since I’ve been jumping around with random topics)… take away decent athletics, and we already suck in a lot of sports, and you lose money to fund other things. Alumni like when their school gets a lot of press, and that includes winning things like sporting events. Point number two… before anyone feels like they need to jump to criticize how unqualified many athletes are based off anecdotal evidence, think before you post. There are countless numbers of athletes who are most likely smarter than you, more important to the school than you, and are probably better people than you. end rant. (sm74, the second part definitely isn’t about you, I don’t want to give you the wrong impression here!)</p>

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As a general statement, this is way too emotional. Was this really necessary? Aimed at anyone, it’s a pretty personal attack that is unfounded. With that many people out there, surely there are always people that are better than you in some way.</p>

<p>Hey, sure athletics is necessary for a private school. I would say it is unrealistic to ever not recruit athletes, and therefore the whole argument is pretty pointless. Are we not just stating the obvious in this thread?</p>

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<p>okay, true, maybe that was a bit emotional, but the point is all the same. no one should be so quick to judge another person’s qualities arbitrarily, especially when they don’t know the person on a personal level. overly stated? maybe, unfounded… definitely not. for the record, i was an athlete (walk on, not recruited), but i know many of the student athletes, and the fact that they would have their academic merits called into question because they’re good at ANOTHER thing in life shouldn’t diminish anything they’ve done. all too often, i’ve met people say snarky things behind their backs and you know what? i do believe such a statement could be justified.</p>

<p>and yeah this argument is pretty pointless, but it should never have been brought up (again) to begin with. it’s simply the fact that people still hold such myopic opinions of recruits that bothers me so much.</p>

<p>How about highly qualified minorities who lose out to less qualified “legacy” whites who get a preference because mom and/or pop went to Columbia? </p>

<p>Funny how you forgot to mention them.</p>

<p>2kids, once all those “special” groups have been taken care of I think you can see why for us basic upper middle income white americans regardless of how extraordinary a kid you might have about the only real way of getting your kid into the most elite schools like Harvard and Yale is thru athletics.
Made me wonder about those top 10% of high school class statistics since my own experience is seeing so many kids get in outside the top 10% then I read the footnote and for most schools the rate represents a survey of fewer than 50% of the kids. Seems that one reason private schools are going away from ranking kids is so these top schools don’t have to really show how many kids are getting in outside the top 10%.</p>

<p>Try bringing some facts to the table; as opposed to your half thought-out opinions.</p>

<p>Here is the current racial breakdown at Harvard:</p>

<p>1% American Indian/Alaskan Native
19% Asian/Pacific Islander
8% Black/Non-Hispanic
7% Hispanic
41% White/Non-Hispanic
10% Non-Resident Alien
15% Race/ethnicity unreported</p>

<p>If you happen to be a white candidate, why would there be a need to rely on “athletics” since you would be joining the majority, in terms of race of prior admitted students? </p>

<p>Lets say half of these “white” kids are from “upper middle class families” and don’t require FA (a safe assumption as only half of Harvard’s student body receives FA). That would equate to 20.5%, which is still higher than any other racial group. Are you saying all these “upper middle class whites” are there based on athletics? </p>

<p>The real question, which you did not answer, is why should any student get a preference base on where their parents went to school, as opposed to their own merits.</p>

<p>um, there are more white people in the population you know. you have to look at it proportionally.</p>

<p>as you know, statistics involving legacies are very misleading. in general, legacies will be smarter, because of hereditary reasons. furthermore, legacies grow up in an environment in which education is emphasized (since their parents had a college education at a good school). therefore, even though it seems a greater proportion of legacies are admitted, not all variables are held constant.</p>

<p>and minorities have legacies too, so I don’t get your point.</p>

<p>the only bonus legacies really get is that they are more likely to attend the school, and therefore more attractive to the university.</p>

<p>your hard work does not entitle you to an ivy league. your performance does not entitle you to an ivy league. nothing short of a building bearing your family’s name on the campus entitles you to an ivy league.</p>

<p>you are selected. you are chosen. you are not simply screened through to see if you are a top student. you are rejected or accepted based on what you have to offer to the school. </p>

<p>There is no such thing as earning a spot.</p>

<p>College is a business. A business in making your school, all of it, look good.</p>

<p>Get over it.</p>

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<p>That might be true, but I don’t see it as a negative development. There is a good reason that Columbia doesn’t want classes full of future PhDs. Bollinger has said unequivocally and publicly, on numerous occasions, that ethnic, national, socioeconomic, extracurricular, and academic diversity improves the quality of students’ education. That is the university’s rationale for affirmative action, including affirmative action that favours athletes.</p>

<p>I’m not hearing any good reasons as to why Columbia should have universal academic standards. That would require a drastic shift in the university’s core values (to borrow admissionsgeek’s concept). Yes, Columbia is an academic institution, but more broadly it is a place where future leaders are meant to be cultivated. That mission requires that students be educated both inside and outside the classroom, that they learn from their peers inasmuch as they learn from their professors. It requires an acceptance of the theory of multiple intelligences, a realization of the fact that an aspiring math PhD won’t reach his full potential with logical-mathematical intelligence alone. He might need to learn some verbal-linguistic skills from the African-American rap-enthusiast or, in the context of this debate, some interpersonal skills from the brash jock.</p>

<p>Simply put, there is more to education than coursework, and affirmative action – even that which is aimed at athletes – serves an important educational purpose outside the classroom.</p>

<p>(By the way, I realize there are other compelling rationales for affirmative action, but none are being put forth by Bollinger with as much vigour as the affirmative-action-enhances-the-quality-of-education one. More people should respond to these rationales rather than appeal to their self-interest.)</p>

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<p>Can you provide any links? I’d be interested in seeing how these studies control for non-university-related variables. I would expect that the schools that practice heavy affirmative action enroll more low-performing minorities from low-income or single-parent households. That would explain the disparity.</p>

<p>My point is simple. Unless people are willing to eliminate ALL preferences, they shouldn’t go around targeting those they happen not to agree with. </p>

<p>Also your “proportion” defense makes no sense. It doesn’t answer why sm74 thinks “upper middle class white” kids don’t get a fair shake.</p>

<p>If you can’t defend your pronouncements, perhaps it’s better to just keep them to yourself.</p>

<p>I just figured out my frustration. A little bit(maybe alot) of a generalization but for the most elite schools here’s what gets you in:</p>

<p>Poor kids - Intelligence
Minority kids - Intelligence
Asian kids - Intelligence
White kids - Athletics, Rich, Legacy, Celebrity</p>

<p>Thats ok- I couldn’t be happier where my kid is going so all is well.</p>

<p>^I’m pretty sure this post is sarcastic, and it’s just very sad that you mischaracterize the other side of the argument as racist. There are real reasons for not giving extra advantages to athletes, none of them have anything to do with race. Athletes actually come in good proportion from all races. Celebrity kids are a complete rarity, and legacy kids tend to be white, but Columbia is not as bad on legacy as other places. On top of that it’s not “intelligence” but accomplishments and qualifications that get people into top universities. You can’t possibly mask this as a racial issue, down with your straw man.</p>

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<p>I actually find this quite offensive, because it bastardizes the hard work and accomplishments of us current students, admits and alumni who made it to Columbia. Columbia is a business but generally an ethical one and a business based heavily on merit. A tiny proportion of us come from families who donated or will donate anything of significance to Columbia. I know what it took to get into a top college as does any one else who’s been through the process and succeeded. Go **** yourself.</p>

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<p>Here are a few which cite papers:</p>

<p>[Does</a> affirmative action hurt minorities? - Los Angeles Times](<a href=“A mismatch effect?”>A mismatch effect?)
[Affirmative</a> action hurts those it’s supposed to help - Pittsburgh Tribune-Review](<a href=“http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_288430.html]Affirmative”>http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_288430.html)
<a href=“http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/5/2/151355.shtml[/url]”>http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/5/2/151355.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>concoll,</p>

<p>really? come on bud, if we are going to argue on affirmative action grounds, let’s not play softball. </p>

<p>article 1) deals exclusively with law school admission, whose aff am practices are not the same as ugrad aff am practices. in a sense there ought to be more volatility in ugrad aff am because there is less to base a decision on when students apply. if we did a similar measure of who is most likely to drop out of ugrad school, yes those that fall under underrepresented groups would be most likely. as it even states the mismatch effect is a hypothesis for why students fail out and not a definitive conclusion. things such as stereotype threat may be far more pervasive in leading to lower numbers. to say that it hurts minorities is not a reasonable statement. rather the conditional is almost always used - it could or may hurt minorities and it is unclear if it does. this is, however, pop sociology. the generally held belief is that affirmative action is not only beneficial to the individuals and communities supported, but for society as a whole. though more of a primer, this from the APA is a good start. [Affirmative</a> Action: Who Benefits?](<a href=“http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/affirmaction.html]Affirmative”>http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/affirmaction.html)</p>

<p>article 2) again law school, and the same guy from the first article. i don’t think he is saying things that are terribly off, but again the mismatch effect has not been proven to be the true cause of students doing worse. he does however include mention that over the years Ivies and other top schools have worked to improve retention rates of underrepresented students. further for those of you who argue for socioeconomically based aff am as a “compromise” it should be noted that similar retention problems exist for all low-income populations regardless of race. race and income, however, compound the problem. i am not sure if retention should be the ultimate concern in admissions; getting students who can finish. you are essentially admitting rough stones and hoping they sharpen up. you don’t know what happens when a student finds alcohol for the first time, or when they face that first chemistry exam. i think most universities have realized that having sound advising and support systems reduce attrition and increase diversity across disciplines. </p>

<p>article 3) newsmax is well known for its conservative viewpoints, so let’s just be wary about it here. second, CATO foundation is well known for its anti-affam view points. third Thomas Sowell tries to make an anti-affam statement along the lines of stereotype threat as a reason why blacks should not be admitted, which is an absurd idea unto itself. and the ratchet effect itself means that the top minority applicants are being siphoned off, yes, this is a real effect that is well documented in higher ed circles; but ultimately that doesn’t mean that columbia’s minority population is any less prepared. it just suggests that perhaps the problem isn’t at the ivy league, but somewhere else.</p>

<p>a study once mentioned on here from princeton argues that ending aff am would devastate minority populations. but help east and south asian populations. certainly this is where the politics becomes difficult. i think that concoll and others who feel that the bar is raised for them certainly have concerns. the counter argument is that ‘overrepresented’ groups, however talented, may not offer something new and unique - that at a certain point it no longer behooves a university to select a student who will succeed over someone who may take full advantage of the opportunity.</p>

<p>but i think an important idea is this quote from the APA report.</p>

<p>"Critics of affirmative action usually believe that people should be selected for positions based on merit alone.</p>

<p>The reality is that most, if not all, hiring decisions involve some sort of unspoken preferential treatment. Sometimes the decision is based on a personal connection or relationship; sometimes it is based on likability or comfort level (Wilson, 1995). In fact, the Federal Glass Ceiling Commission (1995) confirmed that white men tend to be more comfortable with, and therefore more likely to hire and promote, other white men, thus revealing the prevalence of racial- and gender-based preferential treatment."</p>

<p>and also:</p>

<p>"Many people argue that affirmative action has caused reverse discrimination against Whites.</p>

<p>However, a 1995 analysis by the U.S. Department of Labor found that affirmative action programs do not lead to widespread reverse discrimination claims by Whites. In fact, a high proportion of such claims filed were found to lack merit. The analysis found that fewer than 100 out of 3,000 discrimination cases filed actually involved reverse discrimination, and in only six cases were such claims substantiated (Wilson, 1995)."</p>

<p>In the end aff/am policies are imperfect. I think though to say they do not help minority individuals is a complete fallacy. It is hunting for a rationale by looking at data. To think concretely on the subject: underrepresented students of color from varying economic standards may indeed perform poorly on standardized testing, but it is not to say that their promise is any less than a student who does better.</p>

<p>we could extrapolate that to athletes as well. being a student athlete is not solely about the activity, but it is in many ways an incredible opportunity to gain an education and have a very open future. without either population, well, we would have a thousand CalTechs. if you find this compelling? well there is a school out there for you. but in the end universities need to have a variety of perspectives to add difference and conflict to the school. there need to be b and c students as well, there need to be students who completely change in college, and there need to be room for students to find themselves. there is nothing interesting about finding cookie cutters. in the 1970s baseball tried building cookie cutter ballparks and they turned into the ugliest things that man had ever created. uniqueness, difference and complexity are values that universities like people all appreciate.</p>

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<p>You definitely took that that wrong way…If you’re saying youre entitled to an Ivy education because you worked hard and have accomplished things then I think you need to be ****ing yourself. Lots of people work hard and have many accomplishments that are denied from IVY leagues, are they not also entitled?</p>

<p>Also there was never an answer to this last post, I wouldn’t suggest throwing around ******** articles confidentialcoll.</p>

<p>Way to re-pick a two-month-old fight.</p>