Do Law Firms Care About Your Undergraduate Majors & Minors?

Graduate School Law School
1

<p>It seems pretty clear that most law schools don't care about your undergraduate major when it comes to admissions. </p>

<p>But what about law firms? </p>

<p>Would law firms care about the relevant majors/minor? </p>

<p>For example, if I were applying to a law firm in Singapore/Hong Kong/China, would the fact that I majored/minored in Chinese or East Asian Studies matter at all? </p>

<p>Or would the law firms just care about the name of my law school and my law school GPA?</p>

<p>It seems logical that if one were to run a compnay that deals business with Chinese-speaking countries, that one would favor someone who majored/minored in Chinese.</p>

<p>Any insights would be appreciated!!</p>

2

<p>In my experience large international law firms don’t hire people for a specific office or region, or if they do it’s a separate non-partner or local partner track. They tend to hire really good lawyers. Then, the ones who speak Chinese and want to go to Asia put in for those positions.</p>

3

<p>They’re not going to care whether you majored in Chinese.</p>

<p>They’re going to care that you’re fluent in the language and have sufficient cultural knowledge and sensitivity to master any quirks of the local customs.</p>

4

<p>in my experience overseas, this has proved to be the most difficult thing to truly master :(</p>

5

<p>Undergrad degree generally makes no difference except for firms specializing in patent/intellectual property law because those firms are looking for people who have engineering (and possibly science) undergrad degrees.</p>

6

<p>drusba, that’s kind of shocking to learn. Does that mean people who double major and double minor in all sorts of fields won’t really benefit from anything?</p>

7

<p>Law firms do hiring out of law school based on your law school record. I have been on hiring committees (including for large firms) and never in all the years has the person’s undergrad major even been an issue in the discussions (except that for the patent/intelelctual property groups where they are looking for engineers). Having a double undergrad major means nothing. In situation you mentoin where you might be trying for an international job in a firm that has offices overseas and does such work, being able to speak the language (regardless of what your major was) would most likely be a factor but that is not an area I have dealt with.</p>

8

<p>drusba,</p>

<p>Thanks for your sharing your insights (wow, working on the hiring committee must have been interesting!). </p>

<p>The common perception (at least at my college) is that majoring/minoring in multiple fields will open up job opportunities (for example, I’ve seen several Stern kids come over to CAS to major or minor in Philosophy because it is said that banks often favor kids with philosophy background).</p>

<p>I guess it’s really the wishful thinking that’s defining the reality.</p>

<p>Based on your experience at the hiring committee, how would you roughly break down the important components of law firm recruiting in terms of percentage? </p>

<p>For example, would law school grades be at least 50%? Impression from interview 25%? Recommendations from professors the rest, and so on?</p>

9

<p>Large firms in particular get many of their new associates by first getting them as summer associates while in law school (the try out period so to speak). Nevertheless, some hirings come directly out of law school without that, others come from students who have had judicial clerkships right out of law school (those tend to be a highly valued group and sometimes they may be students who already were summer associates while in law school). High powered smaller to mid-size firms may follow that same type of hiring process but very often those firms are trying to hire people who already have two to three years associate experince at another firm, most often one of those large firms. Obviously with that group, the experience they have already had is a key factor.</p>

<p>As to new associates, summer or right out of law school, you have to look at it as a two stage process, getting the interview and the interview. Depending on firm, there may be an earlier stage where the firm is attending a recruiting day on campus which itself is designed to determine who should get an interview. As to getting the interview, law school and grades are most important. Being on law review is also a plus. Some things on a resume may help a little such as prior work experience between college and law school. The more prestigious the law school the greater your chance of getting an interview even if you are not in the top 10% of your class. Firms are going to go much deeper into the ranks with a top law school than they will with others. And it is a cold reality that if you come from a second tier law school your chances of getting an interview with those types of firms are very low unless you are an engineer undergrad seeking to get into patent/intelletual property law or at or near the top of your class. </p>

<p>Recommendations of professors are generally not requested and not provided. On occassion someone in the firm may get a call from a professor he knows well requesting that the firm take a look at one of his students and that can lead to an interview.</p>

<p>If you get the interview, grades are no longer the main factor simply because you would not be there if you did not have the grades. Typical interview process is to see 4 to 6 lawyers in the firm for about 30 minutes each, some will be associates, some partners. That is when the hiring process takes on a much more subjective atmosphere. It really is just boiling down to whether the lawyers you are seeing like you or don’t. If you are shy and inarticulate, you are virtually dead. At the other end, if you are pompous and garrulous you are also likely dead. If any one of the lawyers you see says no to hiring, you are probably gone, with an occassional exception where a partner believes he has seen something that may overrule a no vote from an associate. You generally don’t get any “test” questions to explain some area of the law (although I have actually done that a few times). Most of the interview is the lawyers telling you about the firm and you telling them about yourself. Knowing something about the firm before showing up helps somewhat (it just shows you have done some research before showing up). If you have a particular interest in an area of the law you might want to mention it but most often what they are looking for are those who are going to be able to take on anything they are given. Most lawyers who develop specialties don’t come into the firm thinking that is going to be their specialty. It is often just serendipity–your the associate avaialble at some given time to do some project on a particular kind of case, you do well, and soon you are getting more lof the same kind of cases and before you know it you become a go to person on those kinds of cases.</p>

10

<p>thanks for sharing your insights drusba.</p>

11

<p>

</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Yes, this is correct. Being able to conduct business in Singapore, Hong Kong or China because you know the language and the history will immediately set you apart from a similar candidate who does not have that ability. Law firms are businesses and being able to communicate with and understand your clients is good for business.</p>

12

<p>

</p>

<p>You do not have to have an undergraduate degree in accounting to be a tax lawyer, but as between to otherwise equally attractive candidates, the one with accounting major will be more attractive.</p>

13

<p>Unless you are doing patent/ip law firms usually display “School Name, B.S/B.A,” on their websites.</p>

14

<p>drusba has offered some excellent insights. I would add the following about the 2L interview process at many of the T14 law schools from the perspective of the law firms who hire there.</p>

<p>During the on campus interview process (which is the single greatest hurdle most have to leap in order to get a job at their chosen law firm or other employer), the main difference between many (though not all) of the T14 law schools and all of the rest of the law schools, is that most of the top law schools do not allow employers to pre-screen resumes. In other words, while employers may set guidelines for who they wish to interview (law review, a certain GPA, high grades/honors in first year writing course, etc.), they are merely guidelines. In a law school with no pre-screening, every student may submit a resume and interview slots are typically granted by lottery. </p>

<p>In my experience, attorney-interviewers will consider, among other things, personality (having one at all – not just “book smart”), past work experience (particularly past employment as an accountant, investment banker or engineer), law school grades, law school activities, including law review and moot court, undergraduate grades, undergraduate school attended and other skills (language fluencies, scientific ability), pretty much in that order. </p>

<p>At law schools without pre-screening, most of the larger BIGLAW firms will send plenty of attorney-interviewers so that every student who wishes to interview may do so. In fact, at many of these T14 law schools with no pre-screening, my law firm would actually send additional interviewers if we were told by the career offices of our target law schools that there were more students who wanted to interview than time slots available. When students are unable to get “on a schedule,” often these law firms will see someone for 5 minutes in between interviews, just before or after lunch or at the end of the day. At my law firm, it was also standard practice to invite some of our favorite interviewees of the day out to dinner the night of the interviews, even before call back offers went out.</p>

<p>Most on campus interviews last between fifteen and twenty minutes, and the average attorney-interviewer meets with 15-20 candidates per day. Most interviewees at law schools without pre-screening will have 3-6 interviews per day. Yes, it is exhausting all around.</p>

<p>The hiring committee at my law firm meets once or twice a week during the heaviest interviewing periods, and not every resume is even brought up for consideration. Within 24 hours of conducting the interviews, the interviewers get together and make their picks of who will be presented to the hiring committee (in fact, we often do this while waiting for our train/plane back to NYC after our interview day(s)). The hiring committee typically makes pretty quick determinations based upon the recommendations of the interviewers – though the committee often reviews the more borderline applicants with more scrutiny. In my experience, those who don’t meet the stated guidelines (even with no pre-screening) rarely, if ever, interview well enough to get their feet in the door despite their resume-based shortcomings.</p>

<p>For callback interviews (a/k/a flybacks), we would fly in our candidates and put them up for a night in a nice NYC hotel. We would pay for all incidental expenses (meals (within a specified range), taxis, etc.). The callback interview process at many of the top NYC law firms would involve a fairly early start, and 4-7 interviews ranging from 30 minutes to an hour with various attorneys in the firm at various levels of seniority. The day would include a lunch date for the interviewee with several typically junior associates. At most law firms, when the interviews are over, the candidate goes home and hears with in a week or two whether they will be given a job offer. At a handful of law firms, offers are made (or not) before the interviewee even leaves the firm for the day (interview reports are submitted as soon as the interviewee leaves the attorney-interviewer’s office, and decisions are often made back at the firm during lunch). </p>

<p>Turning a callback into a job offer has little to do with grades or other factors, and much to do with an interviewee’s personality, ability to get along with others, ability to answer hard questions when put on the spot and ability to show, during interviews, that they are hardworking, dedicated and smart (often shown through examples). If a law student gets a callback interview, the chances can be as high as 50% that that law student will receive an offer to become a summer associate.</p>

15

<p>Just had to thank sallyawp and drusba for some fantastic insight. By far some of the best stuff I’ve read on this website.</p>

16

<p>thanks for sharing your insights sallyawp! could not have guessed that interview and people skills were that important.</p>

17

<p>

</p>

<p>Hi Sally – do you happen to know offhand how long candidates are given to accept or decline this offer? Thanks always.</p>

18

<p>According to abovethelaw, the rule is set by NALP and is 45 days from the date of the offer for summer employment. (See entry dated August 6.) I couldn’t find it on the NALP site though.</p>

19

<p>One thing I’ve always hated is that some law firms give offers in waves. They may reject some folks and accept others immediately, but leave a middle group pending, waiting to see how many of those they’ve given offers to accept them. </p>

<p>A true <em>star</em> may be offered a job on campus–without a call back interview. That’s rare, but it happens.</p>

20

<p>Thanks so much, jonri! Much appreciated.</p>