I didn’t say everyone could get them everywhere. I think all MS degrees at Princeton are tuition free though. So I have been led to believe.
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When there is stats compression like at the most selective colleges, there is less transparency since subjective factors become more important in admission and (if offered) merit scholarships.
But that gets back to the notion that those seeking merit scholarships need to apply to less selective colleges, which are also likely to be more transparent, since quantifiable stats are more of a differentiator at those colleges.
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Fifty, I am a big fan of trades schools. A kid who is willing to work hard and has a bit of mechanical aptitude can make a great living in the trades. A machinist we know of in his early 20s makes around $60/hour (not sure if he has some special certifications to pump up the hourly rate or that is just the market). Working no overtime (a standard 2,080 hour year) this translates to $124,800. Throw in some overtime and he is easily earning over $150,000/year. With no debt. In his early 20s. He is in a much better position than a philosophy major with $100k of debt slinging coffee at Starbucks or working at a call center.
We have a friend who never went to college, but worked his way up through the trades and now owns a machine shop. His standard of living - houses, savings, investments, toys - would be the envy of all but a few of my friends from undergrad.
If college is not affordable there are other options. In addition to skipping college altogether, there are other ways to pay for it. Illinois offers veterans grants that pays for all tuition for four years at a state university (that is how I paid for grad school.) I haven’t researched it, but my guess is other states have similar programs. Students can go ROTC and have the DOD pay for their education and they come out the other end with a regular commission in the service, where they will have responsibilities that most people in the private sector won’t see until their 40s. And many employers love veterans.
Finally, how much difference does it make in a student’s life trajectory going to a top 50 school vs a top 20? Sure there are some niche areas of study where there are only a few strong programs, but in fields like business or engineering the students who go to second tier schools do just fine, even compared to top 20 grads. Is the GA Tech alumnus really that much better off than the Ohio State grad?
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However, only about 29% of young Americans are considered eligible for service in the US military.
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D23 has a friend who graduated from high school last year and went directly into an electrical apprenticeship. Learning on the job, and making $25/hr.
Of course, lots of these kinds of apprenticeships do rely upon having a network within the trade (or having done some sort of vocational study while in high school or at some sort of CC or for-profit program).
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UCBalum, Right you are. So many are ineligible due to 1. failure to graduate HS, 2. criminal record, and 3. being not physically qualified (which in many cases is due to obesity). A college bound student should have no problem with 1. I would hope that the kids of CC posters would not have a problem with 2. Physical fitness, happily, is in the applicant’s control.
I think back in the day one almost needed a “hook” to get into a specific trade in a given city. Today, there is such a shortage of skilled trades that those barriers are no longer an issue.
Yes, there are all sorts of tips and work-arounds that can help students pay for the very over-priced (compared to any other country) higher ed that we have in the US. Everything from ROTC to the “going down a few tiers in order to get merit” strategy that is the focus of this thread. I just think it’s too bad that this Byzantine system of payment is what our country has decided on. It reminds me a lot of our medical system: very over-priced with no transparency.
I agree with you 100% about trade schools; I too am a big fan. This is why I disagree with those posters who seem to feel that tracking kids to a trade path is an insult. I work at a school where the average ACT score is 16. Yet all these kids are futilely slogging away on a nominally college-prep track. Because to step in and direct them toward a quality career-prep trades program after 10th grade would somehow be abusive. So instead they graduate at 18 with zero hope of succeeding in college, and with zero practical work skills. So the best they can do is wash cars, when with good tracking they could have fixed cars. Or they wash dishes when they might have been pastry chefs.
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Yes, around here you often need to “know somebody” to get an electrical apprenticeship. I think a system of tracking into the trades (I suggest after 10th grade in high school) would be more just and equitable.
ETA: There are definitely labor shortages in the trades, but at least around here you still need somebody to sponsor you as an apprentice. The barriers still exist (A friend of mine with a Black son told me of some of the difficulties he faced in finding anyone who would take him on.)
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I don’t think tracking kids on a trade track is an insult.
But I know several 2E type kids who are now working in complex, societally beneficial professions (not that the trades aren’t beneficial) who would have been tracked as stone masons if we had an educational system like some in Europe.
Yes, stone masons use geometry. But why should a kid with off the charts mathematical ability with poor executive functioning who scores abysmally on a test administered in the 8th grade be deemed “not university material”?
There are some trades in my area which are relatively open. And then some which are dominated by a few, multi-generational families which are not. Electrical being a good example- you really do need to be related/know someone.
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That is true until you mentioned that the colleges offering merit are more transparent. They are not. They aren’t required to be, and why would they be if not required?
Blossom, I used to manage construction trades for a living. You are right that there are families where multiple generations are in a given trade, and that in the past, in some cities, it was difficult to get into some trades. Again, I think those days are past because of the current shortage of skilled tradesmen. My regular electrician is always looking for new HS grads to start apprenticeships. If a HS grad wants to get into the trades, they can.
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Some of the less selective colleges that merit seekers may apply to state on their web sites that applicants with X.Y GPA and (if used) ZZZZ SAT score or WW ACT score get $NNNNN scholarship. That is more transparent than what one finds at more selective colleges.
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Yes, I also have known several 2E type kids who benefited from not being tracked. I also have known several thousand kids from my school over the years who graduated without any ability to go to college or to work anything but the most menial job. The 2E kids I happen to know have very involved parents, and would have been fine one way or another. The graduates from my school are not fine.
I think tracking after 10th grade is a nice compromise. Or perhaps tracking earlier, but parents can opt out. There has to be a better way than what we have now. So much talent is being wasted by treating the trades as “less than”, but since these kids aren’t in our neighborhoods or the kids of our friends, it is easy not to realize they exist.
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Who says they aren’t in our neighborhoods or the kids of our friends?
I live in a diverse neighborhood with new immigrants, folks who live in big houses on one acre plots and folks who live in apartment buildings, subsidized housing, and “regular” houses on one fifth of an acre. People want to live here because it has great public transportation and is the opposite of a gated community (you can walk to the library, supermarket, movie theater, bank).
As you can surmise, not every kid in the neighborhood wants to work at Google or Goldman Sachs. Some of them aspire to work in the trades- which is great. But sticking a kid who has the potential to become a cyber expert due to incredible math and CS skills in a vo-tech training program to study drywall seems-- I dunno- a bit elitist, no? as if somehow the kids with LD’s must be born into upper middle class families if they are to have any hope at all for an education past a certificate training program?
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The US system is kind of elitist in actual practice in that those students with involved parents with money are much more likely to be placed or tracked into the educational path that is most suitable or optimal for them, whether that path involves a bachelor’s degree or skilled trade education or something else.
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It seems like the original topic of this thread has run its course?
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Yeah, we do. @ucbalumnus
I think all parents should listen to this podcast episode from Jeff Selingo:
Major matters more than where you get a degree. Some majors at certain schools matter more but the gap is narrowing.
We joke that the best kind of love from a college is financial love. My kid will go to Alabama. 4 years of free tuition and more goes a long way. His roomie is a NMF and will get 4 years of everything free. They both had options. If they can stick the course and graduate as engineers, they will be just fine.
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