<p>Question: I am a freshman at a public university that is not very selective. I never got spectacular grades in high school and was the athlete who was “too cool” to study. I ended up with a 3.5 GPA and was admitted here with a full-tuition scholarship for four years. Now that I’m in college, [...]</p>
<p>I disagree with the answer above. Grad school admissions in the natural sciences and engineering is largely a numbers game, and there is little discrimination against the undergraduate institution. Pull in top grades, impress a professor or two to remember you, do a bit of research, pull in a 95%+ rank on the GRE, and you will find yourself admitted to most highly regarded PhD programs in the natural sciences and engineering.</p>
<p>While there is little discrimination against second tier undergrad institutions in PhD admissions, there is a HUUUUGE discrimination against hiring faculty from second tier institutions. The snob factor in academia is tremendous, and even second and third tier institutions will give preference to graduates from better programs over their own students. These people don’t eat their own cooking.</p>
<p>My son, who graduated from Ordinary State U, is now in a Ph.D. program at a university that ranks in the top 15 in the country in his specialty.</p>
<p>My husband, who graduated from Even Less Prestigious State U (but with better grades and GREs), made it into a top 10 Ph.D. program in his field many years ago.</p>
<p>It’s not what college you go to, it’s what you do while you’re there. Your grades and GRE scores are important, but so is undergraduate research experience. I would suggest transferring only if your current undergraduate institution does not offer undergraduate research opportunities.</p>
<p>If you think that a career in academia might be for you, go into a Ph.D. (or combined Masters/Ph.D.) program right away, not just a Masters program. And try to get as high on the food chain as possible (i.e., as highly ranked a graduate school as you can get admitted to). If you become a faculty member, you will never work at a university that’s as prestigious or more prestigious than the one where you got your Ph.D. So the higher you start, the greater your job opportunities later. If you choose to use your Ph.D. in a career other than academia, this doesn’t matter so much. But very few entering graduate students know whether they’re going into academia or other types of work five or so years later.</p>
<p>Agree with the above posts. </p>
<p>Contrary to the first official answer, I don’t know of any grad schools that look for diversity in schools. Some professional grad programs- such as MBA schools as one example- look for diversity, but not in undergraduate school. As a selection committee member for PhD programs in my field the past 15 years at different institutions, we would have no interest in diversity of educational backgrounds. We do account for GRE scores, letters of recommendation, experience with research and research goals, overall GPA (esp on particular courses) and school attended (but the latter point is not weighted as high as the others and our net of undergrad schools that we think are great is very large).</p>
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starbright - how prestigious would a school need to be to be in this “net” - would an ordinary, top 100 ranked state school fit? top 25 among public universities</p>
<p>I’m not great on the ranks so I use the term fairly loosely. I don’t think academics are following USNWR. But I quickly glanced at a typical ranking and probably we’d look at the top 40 public schools, but it depends on one’s area. If a school is known to us in our field, if someone was able to work with and/or aget a ref. from faculty we know at a given school, get some research experience in that school, we couldn’t care less what its national rank is by the popular press. </p>
<p>To illustrate if I can, one of our best ever students came from U of Utah. One of my best friends is a full professor at Harvard, her undergrad was a small local school with @ so-and-so in the name. At all the schools I’ve been at, we’d be excited to interview students who worked with people in our field we know at U of Illinois, Ohio State, or Arizona State, just to name a few. Thats because in our field, great people happen to be doing great research at those places.</p>
<p>hello </p>
<p>thanks for talking about a important subject.</p>
<p>There’s this young person whom I personally know graduated from College of Williams and Mary in Virginia. She is attending a graduate program at Yale with full scholarship. She’s not a URM.</p>
<p>For PhD programs, one has to get out of the national ranking mindset and understand that in PhD-land it’s ranking that is field specific. While there is a common main can’t-go-wrong thread across top national schools or LACs, beyond that one has to drill down and see where the top researchers are located for each field to get a sense of how it would be regarded in a given field. </p>
<p>Opportunities to get to know and <em>work with</em> scholars at any school in one’s field is hugely beneficial. If my D were wanting her PhD (too early yet- she says that’s so boring mom!), I’d look for the best public schools in her area of interest (why waste money?) and find out what formal and informal opportunities there are to get research experience and letters of recommendation and guidance from professors at those schools. I would then encourage her to work on getting that experience once there. Might be volunteering in a lab, doing independent study or other such things. </p>
<p>Research experience is great for so many reasons:</p>
<p>a. We worry that applicants don’t know what they are getting into. Without research experience, how do you know you want to spend a lifetime doing it? So having it tells us you have some idea what you are in for.
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b. We look for applicants who have a genuine passion and excitement for research and the field. Research experience doesn’t guarantee that but helps a bit. Passion and excitement are almost the only drivers that will keep you going. </p>
<p>c. If someone in our field, who we respect (and often we are friends with- it’s a small world!) can tell us about their first hand insights about a student’s potential to do research, that is extremely useful to us. Such opinions come from faculty you get to do research with. </p>
<p>d. Faculty you get to know in your field of interest can guide you through the PhD application process. They can help you figure out what your strengths and interests are. Direct you to courses to take. They can point you to the schools you should be applying to. Look over your essays. </p>
<p>At our school- like a lot of top research schools in many fields- we are looking for future researchers who will publish a lot and impact our field with their discoveries. We will take those with promise and provide them with full tuition and living expenses for four years. We do not do this out of the goodness of our hearts: we get them to work as our research assistants which helps our own publication record, they add so much intellectual stimulation to our environment, we enjoy mentoring students into our world, and we hope they go on to become famous and everyone will know they came from our school 
We are fortunate to be in a field that has more jobs than good PhD students and decent salaries. So the ones we bring in need to have an aptitude for research and be excited about it (internally driven).</p>
<p>In the applicant process, we are trying to exclude some key people (and we have to read between the lines and look for clues or counter evidence, since few are naive enough to tell us about it directly):</p>
<ol>
<li><p>We don’t want people who want a PhD because it gives them status (e.g. my parents think I should get a PhD!).</p></li>
<li><p>We don’t want people who see being a professor as a cushy and stable job (e.g.flexible schedule, tenure, I get summers off!). Such applicants don’t have a clue about our work lives!</p></li>
<li><p>We weed out those who don’t know what they want but want a PhD for vague reasons: to avoid getting a job, to buy time, or because they think collecting more or higher degrees can’t hurt. We are not funding your hobby or personal growth! </p></li>
<li><p>And we would prefer not to take those students whose primary passion is teaching. While that is a wonderful goal in and of itself, and we pride ourselves on teaching well (and most of our students win teaching awards), our program is not designed for that particular focus. </p></li>
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<p>Please note I am only describing the orientation of top PhD programs in my field. I can not state with any confidence these admission points above are true across all fields.</p>
<p>Starbright,</p>
<p>What (type of) field are you in?</p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
<p>Anyone know how this differs for humanities PhDs versus natural science? I know that funding is much less in the humanities, but how do other factors (e.g. research experience) come into play?</p>
<p>One of the business school disciplines (hence the jobs and salaries)</p>
<p>This topic is interesting to me, since I’m applying from a less-selective college to some top grad programs. </p>
<p>From what I’ve gathered from the professors I’ve talked to in my field (PoliSci/Int’l Affairs), strong GRE scores are important in showing that you’re at the same level as the students from more selective schools. You also apparently need to have a really high GPA too and as always strong recs. and a relevant personal statement. </p>
<p>Beyond that, I’ve been told by so many professors and current grad students (at places around the country) that I’ve come to think this is the real key: make sure your application gets read. Apparently some departments throw away or only hastily glance at applications that come from less selective schools. You need to do everything you can to ensure that someone on the faculty committee is willing to take a look and see what you have to offer. I have no idea if this is true or not and would be interested in what other people think.</p>
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<p>Even in the current environment? When the job market is relatively flooded with high-flyin’ hedge fund talent? Not trying to pick a fight, I think that your description of the selection process is spot on for the sciences too, though I must say that I don’t have first-hand experience like you do. Most of my info is second-hand from professors I know.</p>
<p>*I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties
than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to
control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation,
the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive
the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the
continent their fathers conquered.</p>
<p>Thomas Jefferson 1802*</p>
<p>^</p>
<p>1) What is happening to those in industry (ie. wall street) has little bearing on those being trained and hired to teach and do research on business. Wall street bankers and hedge fund managers are not equipped to be tenure track professors and researchers in business schools (though they may teach occasional courses as adjuncts, they are not replacing PhD trained researchers for posts). Two unrelated job markets. </p>
<p>2) Like the rest of academia, but moreso, MBA programs get flooded with applicants when the economy tanks, and someone has to teach MBAs (and other programs in universities, business schools make and bring in tons of money to the university).</p>
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<p>I can’t speak for the field you are in. In the world I’m familiar with, its not an issue. We simply don’t get THAT many applicants. We also get applicants from around the world (and consider them similarily); yet we don’t necessarily know the ‘top’ schools at the countries they are from. Moreover, half the time we don’t even know some of the ‘best schools’ in the states (e.g. a top nothc LAC that doesn’t have a business program, none of us faculty may be familiar with it). </p>
<p>Show me someone with standardized tests scores in the 90th percentile range, with research experience and great letters of ref, and I’ll show you someone whose file gets read. </p>
<p>In your ideal world, you know a professor in your undergraduate studies well enough in the field you are applying who can and will write an email or call someone in the dept you are applying to ensure you are on the radar screen. Fields are small enough to make this possible. Another good reason to get a UG where you can work close with some faculty in research if you are interested in eventually getting your PhD.</p>
<p>So what do the top grad schools think of good programs at schools with no prestige?
The specific program in question is Michigan State’s James Madison College, a residential college for public policy/poli-sci with smaller class sizes, etc. within MSU (huge school thats not very selective)
With poli-sci and international relations being such large fields, I would imagine there are a ton of applicants to Ph.D programs in the field, so do you think I would be better off trying to transfer into a school with more national name recognition? (Getting into UMich from MSU is supposed to be fairly easy)
I’m not sure how important research is within Poli-sci or International Relations or how abundant it is at the undergrad level, anyone have any insight into this?</p>
<p>As somebody with a UMich PhD in political science, I’d tell you you’re selling Mich State short–Mich State’s political science dept has very strong people and is well thought of in the field–particularly if you’re interested in public policy, being in Lansing has its advantages</p>
<p>On this note – I will be entering a master’s program in music composition in the fall, and the choice is between a highly regarded specialist school within a larger university (The Aaron Copland School of Music at Queens College CUNY) and an internationally renowned research university (University of Edinburgh-- yes, in Scotland). My plan is to go on to a PhD, so if anyone has any insight as to which might be better prep and perhaps “look” better, I’m all ears (on the latter point, I realize it’s not so much where you go but what you do, but still…).
I currently have a Bachelor’s and a JD (Berklee College of Music and Seattle University School of Law respectively). Thanks!</p>