Do you find yourself avoid a college choice based on religion?

Parents Forum
41

<p>Does it really matter!!??!!</p>

<p>Even if tuition dollars aren't directly funding church agenda, those dollars support church doctrine that is codified as univ policy in the form of attendance at Mass, parietals, availability of contraception, tolerance/support of LGBT students, etc. Parents (or students) who disagree with church doctrine, and thus with some univ policies may, depending on how profoundly they disagree, make a different choice than those families that are untroubled by the relationship b/c church doctrine and univ policy. So what!!</p>

42

<p>I have no trouble understanding Bay's perspective. We encouraged our S to focus on public colleges because we perceive them to have greater diversity on many fronts, including religious diversity.</p>

43

<p>Bay, we just have a difference of opinion. In my mind, the items you list are not examples of tuition money "trickling up to support the greater church agenda.” University faculty, lectures, religious retreats, chapels and mass, social outreach projects - all those seem to me to be on-campus, very visible, but ‘visible in the background and not foreground’ features of a Catholic university’s culture. I will repeat my primary point: Catholic universities are not income streams for the greater/larger Catholic church. The tuition money you pay is supporting your student’s experience on the campus. A stream of money is not being siphoned away from the campus for Catholic church activities elsewhere. </p>

<p>Obviously, families make informed choices about what is acceptable and not acceptable about a university when making college choices. If you do not like the culture of a Catholic university, your family makes a different choice. But, many Catholics and non-Catholics happily attend and graduate from Catholic universities because they discover the majority of these schools offer a very good education product and the product is not overly Catholic, or even, religious. (Catholics, after all, are notorious for being non-evangelical.) At the regional level, especially, Catholic universities are known to offer merit aid and can be one of the most affordable college options available to a student. An informed choice will be based on a thorough evaluation of the school and an evaluation of fit for both the family and the student. Families that dismiss a Catholic university upfront because of its religious affiliation may be dismissing a great option for their student. Or not, lol.</p>

44

<p>It really depends on the school. My neighbors who are Jewish have availed themselves of the offerings at Fordham and Iona without a thought, even those who are very religious. On the other hand, I don't think they had catholic schools on their children's lists for their primary college. THey did want residential schools with strong Hillels on campus for those reasons. But there are Jewish kids who go to the local Catholic high schools and are looking at GT and BC and Villanova as possibilities. </p>

<p>On the other hand, many catholic kids are wary of the Christian colleges and of the schools that they consider overboard catholic. My son took Providence College off his list after a visit though he liked Catholic colleges in general and had a number on his list.</p>

45

<p>Three children - three different Catholic high schools (one being Jesuit).</p>

<p>Let's see:
teachers of different faith - Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu come to mind immediately</p>

<p>friends - Catholic, agnostic, atheist, Methodist, Greek Orthodox, Hindu, Muslim, neo-pagan Wiccan (well, only one Wiccan friend) - and these are just the close friends</p>

<p>My oldest d made the comment after transferring from a public school about how diverse her selection of friends had become. She had friends of all different faiths and more exposure to diverse beliefs than she had previously and joked "Who would have thought that by attending a Catholic school I would have more friends of different faiths than my public school?" where students tended to band in tighter groups. Just finished fasting for Ramadan in support of her Muslim friends.</p>

<p>The Greek Orthodox friends chose to attend the University of Notre Dame - and they attend a Greek Orthodox service on Sundays. Yes, Catholic universities hold mass, but tuition money also goes to myriad other religions.</p>

<p>Anyway, curiosity led me to look further into Georgetown and I found: "On any given week on our campuses, more than 50 different religious services are taking places, including Catholic Masses, Muslim prayer services, Orthodox Christian services, Shabbat services, and Protestant Services and Bible Services" on the campus ministry page.</p>

<p>Now I do realize that some religious universities (pick any faith) hold to a tighter agenda than others, but to lump any and all religious universities together - well, I guess that's an interesting viewpoint in it's own right.</p>

46

<p>I am not concerned that the monies at Catholic or other church colleges are going towards the religion. Every financial statement I have seen for colleges shows that the COA does not fully pay for a student. So it seems to me that the funnel is going the other way. If the cost of a school is over the market or the services less than comparable cost colleges, there may be some suspicions that the schools is supporting something other colleges are not, but I have not seen that. For my son, when you include the merit awards, the schools were very much subsidizing HIM, not the other way around.</p>

47

<p>I just cannot rationalize it that way ^ (i.e., based on COA). Let me give an offensive example to make my point. If you are Jewish, can you bring yourself to pay money to attend a academically outstanding university that is founded on Nazi principles, because the amount you are paying doesn't fully cover the COA? Can you compartmentalize the Nazi agenda of the school, and simply rationalize that your tuition didn't go to THAT part of the entire experience? I cannot.</p>

<p>Again, no one here is debating that religious schools can offer outstanding academics and may be very diverse. My issue is whether I can bring myself to pay money that will in some way support dogma I find personally offensive.</p>

48

<p>The Nazi comparison is not a good one since it is so clearly damaging and harmful. I don't think it hurts anyone to learn about another religion. I suppose your example mind hold for someone Jewish going to a Muslim funded school, or vice versa. I could see where there would be a lot of discomfort in that situation, but even then, it is wise to know what those who oppose you are preaching, teaching, thinking. To avoid this knowledge can be detrimental, and there are fortunately those who are interested and curious enough to check things out. I think some of the problems we have in the international scene as that we do not have enough Americans interested enough in other languages, countries, cultures.</p>

49

<p>I'm not sure how you make the leap from not wanting to fund an ideology to avoiding knowledge of religions, languages, cultures, etc.</p>

50

<p>In response to the OP's question, "Can a student go to these sorts of places (sectarian colleges) and not feel like they are left out of the campus vibe when they practice a different religion?" my answer would be, "Probably, but it depends on the college." On the other hand, if the OP's question had been, "Can a student go to these sorts of places (sectarian colleges) and not feel like they are left out of the campus vibe if they don't practice any religion?" my answer would be, "Probably not."</p>

<p>No member of my family (presently) affiliates with any religious denomination or practices any religion. I am a lifelong atheist. (I was exposed to and instructed in evangelical Lutheranism while growing up, but I never internalized those beliefs.) My daughter's Other Parent was reared Roman Catholic, but began relinquishing those beliefs as a mid-teen, and has self-identified as "spiritual" for more than the nearly twenty-one years we've known each other. </p>

<p>My daughter's Other Parent and I agreed to rear our daughter without religious dogma of any kind; however, we also agreed to teach her about various religions (as many religions as we could think of), so that she would learn to respect those who believe in and practice various religions. Unfortunately, our parental lessons in "religious tolerance" were quickly undermined by our daughter's three public school districts, each of which was financially, politically, and/or ideologically dominated by one or more Christian denominations whose activist administrators, teachers, and "involved" parent-volunteers saw to it that students were not only exposed to, but also inculcated in Christianity. Public school-affiliated Christian activists plunged my household into turmoil time and time again, and it was tough--sometimes temporarily impossible--for Other Parent and I to maintain our commitment to teaching our daughter religious tolerance.</p>

<p>When it came time for my daughter to start researching prospective colleges, she didn't merely avoid sectarian schools (of all religious affiliations)--she automatically eliminated them from her consideration list. Some of those religious schools were excellent, but based upon her K-12 public school experiences, my non-religious daughter did not want to continue her education in a religious environment. She applied to public and non-sectarian private schools, only.</p>

<p>Today, my daughter is attending a large urban university where she has encountered many people of various religious faiths. She has had no problems getting along with any of those people. Although my daughter does not practice a religion, she shares our family commitment to religious tolerance, which will be of profound and lasting benefit to her as she navigates life.</p>

51

<p>"On the other hand, if the OP's question had been, "Can a student go to these sorts of places (sectarian colleges) and not feel like they are left out of the campus vibe if they don't practice any religion?" my answer would be, "Probably not."</p>

<p>S is at one of 'these sorts of places' and does not practice any religion. He is quite happy, does his own thing with his friends, and does not feel left out. As in most of these topics, your mileage may vary.</p>

52

<p>Again, in my experience it depends on the college.</p>

<p>DS looked at Holy Cross, Providence & Stonehill, all Catholic. All said that non-Catholics and even non-Christians would be welcome. Two of the 3 tour guides said they were not Catholic and that they felt completely at home on campus. The only academic requirement that was religious was at Holy Cross & PC, 1 -2 semesters of a religion class, but the class did NOT have to be about Catholicism or Christianity - they offered courses on Eastern religions, Judaism, etc. I don't think Stonehill had any religion class requirement at all (I could be wrong, but that's what I remember). </p>

<p>But among those 3 schools, we got different vibes. PC seemed to be the most proud of their Dominican Friar heritage, and emphasized the plusses of it the most during the tour (and that was one of the non-Catholic tour guides). Stonehill seemed neutral, like the Catholic element was a side issue that was available for anyone interested in it and easily avoided if you wanted to avoid it. Holy Cross seemed almost apologetic about being Catholic. PC seemed to have the most social restrictions - they still have parietals, and only had one co-ed dorm, and it's co-ed by wing. Stonehill didn't seem to have any social limitations based on religion. </p>

<p>DS is at Lafayette, which is very loosely Presbyterian. The college frankly admits that it only affiliated with the Presbyterian church many years ago because it needed the money. There is no religion requirement, and not even a Presbyterian service on campus! The most common religion among students, and the one that has weekly services in the Chapel, is Catholic. Religious organizations include the Hillel Society (Jewish), The Journey (Christian/Interfaith), the Lafayette Christian Fellowship, the Muslim Student Association, Orthodox Christian Fellowship and the Newman Association (Catholic) and the Fellowship of Christian Athletes.These groups sponsor discussions, meals, retreats, prayer groups, etc. There are weekly worship services on campus for Catholic, Protestant, Jewish and Muslim students.</p>

<p>That said, I don't think either of my kids, who have been raised Catholic but have also been clearly influenced by my more open-minded Protestant upbringing, would be comfortable at a primarily Jewish school such as Brandeis, or at a heavily religious school such as many of the Baptist colleges or Southern Protestant schools. I think DD will end up at a Catholic, public, or nominally Protestant school.</p>

53

<p>I go to Stonehill and I'm not religious at all and haven't had any problems with that here, I've never felt pressured to be religious or not felt comfortable here because I'm not religious. There is a semester religion requirement, but it's not just about Catholicism, it's about all religions.</p>

54

<p>We are Jewish, but we did not start out with any expectations about a school affiliation (other than avoiding truly Christian colleges that emphasize that aspect). However, it became clear when visiting schools like Boston College that my son was just uncomfortable with a Catholic/Jesuit school even though we know that they are very welcoming of all faiths and have lots on non-Catholic students. I think there were just too many crosses around. </p>

<p>He had no problem at schools with minimally religious connections (i.e. just in name only), especially ones like Emory that had a significant Jewish popluation (even though it is tacitly Methodist). We are not religious, but my son did seem to feel more comfortable where the school did have a a decent Jewish population. Although he never cited this directly as a reaon he liked theschool, I just noticed a pattern. I found this particulalry interesting as we come from a part of the country where there are not a lot of Jews, so its not like he would not be used to being one of the few Jews around.</p>

55

<p>My D's experience at her "sectarian" college has been identical to Karen College's son. Although she was raised Presbyterian, she is not particularly religious and has not found this to be a problem AT ALL at her Catholic university. As near as I can tell, her friends there range from Catholics to atheists, and no one appears to feel excluded.</p>

<p>I think this is way too complicated an issue to be covered in one blanket statement.</p>

56

<p>I myself went to Catholic schools through high school, flat-out refused to go to a Catholic college, and went to a Catholic law school (Georgetown). I find Catholocism at Georgetown to be ever-present, obvious, and offensive. I hated it. No religious classes required at law school...not sure about undergrad...but the place "reeks" of Catholocism...</p>

<p>Now, I'm pretty anti-Catholic (the religion/institution, not the people)...if the student looking at a Catholic (or other religious) college isn't "sensitized" to it, then probably at most schools (including Georgetown) it wouldn't interfere at all with the student's UG experience...but for someone like me, it would be a serious negative...</p>

<p>So, I'd put religious affiliation in as a factor that some students (families) will care about and some (most?) won't...for those that do, some religious schools will "show" their affiliations more than others...Georgetown absolutely does...</p>

57

<p>TimeCruncher gives an example of where one must even look at the culture of public colleges- don't presume being public means religion neutral; it all depends on the student body. That is why some religiosly sponsored colleges, including Catholic, are easy for people not of that reliogion to be at- the student body. Some Catholic colleges have even been threatened with Church interference in their academics because some are felt to be not in line with Church teachings- that's the kind of school I could see attending!</p>

58

<p>Gee! It's time to wind down this thread. The OP is anti-Catholic and will not fund his/her children's education if they choose any Catholic school. The vast majority of other posters are more tolerant, recognizing that different levels of "religiousness" exist at different schools and are willing to support their childrens' informed decisions or, God (sorry) forbid, let their children strike out on a path different than what the parent has chosen (the result of successful parenting, in my opinion). End of story. If the OP has successfully raised his/her kids, and they want to go to a school not to the OP's liking, the kid will have the fortitude to tell the OP what to do with the money.</p>

59

<p>For what it's worth, I believe the Jesuits actually operate outside of the Vatican and do not answer to them. Historically (meaning centuries ago), I think there has been conflict arising from the Vatican's fear of power accumulated by the Jesuits.</p>

<p>We toured Providence and the tour guide was a Jewish girl from Las Vegas, who felt very comfortable at PC as a non-Christian. She was the most enthusiastic tour guide we've had (2 children visiting probably a total of 20 schools).</p>

60

<p>I certainly would not advocate Catholic or any school that has religious ties if the family, particularly the student has issues with that aspect. There are ever so many colleges in the US, so this does give a basis of thinning the list.</p>

<p>There are some very good educational deals at Catholic school, however, that are being eliminated if you are crossing them off the lists without good reason. For location, selectivity, merit money, LAC type education with some pragmatic alternatives thrown in, campus, sports life, it is hard to do better.</p>