Do you pay for sample lessons?

<p>Not a disgruntled husband, I have seen the same grumbling from dad’s about how much seriously going after sports costs. Serious baseball kids spend a fortune on training programs, travel teams, all kinds of lessons, kids into hockey face rink time to practice and travelling, ballet students face incredible costs, tennis players, same thing, and gymnastics is up there, too…it is funny, baseball is already seeing this, if you look at baseball on the pro level you have the kids coming from the dominican republic, where kids are pulled into training programs if they have any kind of talent there (and often get exploited,but that is another story), then in this country increasingly it is kids from fairly well off families who can afford the freight…among other things, it has increasingly shut out African American kids and kids in general from less well off backgrounds,and MLB is scrambling to find a way to get them involved realizing the hurdles.</p>

<p>One of the things I found very annoying was the music teachers seemed to assume there was always one more dime a family could afford. They are going to some summer music festival in Europe, and are wondering why the parents can’t pay for another summer festival here, then send them off to Europe and pay another X grand for that…I think what concerns me the most is the assumption that parents are this cash cow with no real world concerns, like saving to pay for college for example. It is kind of ironic, given how uncertain music as a career can be financially, to assume that, that it is no big deal, and it bothers me. like I said, we were fortunate enough that we could support a lot of this, and do it with one income which allowed my wife to do a lot of things to help him, but I also know we were lucky and could sacrifice and scrimp and do those things, but a lot of people can’t. </p>

<p>Musicprnt, I appreciate your concern for families that struggle to support their aspiring musicians, and I agree with a lot of your comments. My husband and I both work, but don’t make that much. Had to take a second mortgage to pay for the violin his teacher said he needed (she was right), had to pay for music programs every summer that his teacher said he needed (right, again) had to take out a bunch of parent plus loans to augment his student loans, sacrificed vacations and purchases for ourselves, and on and on. It’s crazy, but he’s got a shot at this, and we value what he’s trying to do. I am very grateful to the teachers who provided sample lessons at no charge. My son always inquired first, and they appreciated that. </p>

<p>@onekidmama, I hear you. At the very least,I would appreciate teachers and others in the whole music student business to at least pretend to care, in the violin world there are some top teachers who are the opposite of arrogant jerks, who at least show concern and try to find ways to help, but there are also a lot of arrogant jerks who basically by their actions don’t give a crap, while making noises and nodding all so seriously about how Classical music needs to get out from behind the image of being elite, a rich man’s plaything. People talk about the cost of an ivy league education, but in reality the ivy league schools actually put into action things to try and make them more affordable for people other than those with super moderate incomes, whereas music schools that often are ivy league level in terms of cost, tend to do very little in reality (in all fairness, they don’t have the endowments for the most part that the Ivies do). </p>

<p>This thread has morphed a little from the original question, but it is so interesting! My H and I talk about this all the time. We are fortunate enough to be able to support my S’s musical aspirations, but it has not come without sacrifice. Both my H and I drive 10 year old cars and we are looking at buying my S a new cello ( which he needs at this point) instead of a new car for either of us. Not complaining, but it is very expensive.
As to the original question, it appears we were very fortunate that we were never asked to pay for sample lessons, we did always offer, and he received full one hour lessons from everyone he met with. He had sample lessons at NEC, CIM, BC, UM, Case Western, Indiana and Oberlin. I remember at the time I was impressed with how gracious all these teachers were with their time despite being very obviously extremely busy. One teacher met us at 8P on a Friday evening after returning from a trip and I remember receiving e-mails from some that were timed at very early morning or late night hours. There was one very funny incident when I e-mailed a professor about a month before we were going to be in the area in April to ask if we could meet and he replied in July stating that he was sorry he missed our visit, but if we came again he’d be happy to meet with my S. :slight_smile: </p>

<p>@cellomom-</p>

<p>You guys sound like us, I got rid of my last car at 150k miles because we had another car I could use and the other car needed a new exhaust system…I cried losing that car, it was so young, only 20 <em>lol</em>…my current car is at 193k…so yep, similar thing. And like you, before the start of school this year,a new violin, that was the cost of a new Camry or similar car. As an ex Clarinetist (of sorts), I marvel at the price of string instruments, the best pro clarinet that Buffet makes (or at least the last time i looked at them) was about 1/5 the price of my S’s violin…and that is considered “modest” for a violin! It all does add up, that is for sure. </p>

<p>I freakin love the morph! This is a great discussion. My H and I were just discussing how there were so few kids of color at the auditions and competitions. Unfortunately, this is just too expensive for so many families. We pay nearly $400/month for lessons!!! I mean I think there is an assumption with the music schools that you just have it, more, more, more. And we just don’t. There are decisions and choices that have to be made. And we can’t just blindly keep pouring money into their pockets. lol We have another kid for God’s sake!</p>

<p>Anyway, since the school is not my D’s first choice or even second, I had her contact the teacher and ask to observe a studio class and a private lesson. He’s fine with that. She also heard from another instructor from the same department and he charges half of what the previous instructor charges. lol Her voice teacher was surprised that there was no unity among the teachers at the school. When she was teaching she said that all the voice teachers agreed not to charge and viewed sample lessons as part of the recruitment process. Oh well.</p>

<p>Oh I can beat all of you. 2 cars with 200k+ (one has 240K and a duck-taped bumper.) That’s what my husband drives, and he’s a doctor. That’s thanks to 4 kids going through college. </p>

<p>LOL!</p>

<p>Mine only had 151k last fall but I bet it has 160 by now with all the driving around to lessons, ensembles and gigs that I’ve done this year. Then there’s gas . . . if only a drum kit would fit in a Prius :D</p>

<p>GH- Haha! you win! my car “only” has 173k miles on it. The silver lining to my S being in college is that I am no longer driving him to lessons weekly and am putting fewer miles on my car, hoping to go over 200k with it before I have to replace it! My H is a Dr. also.
Dradsmom- I can remember when my son first started cello lessons when he was 5 we paid $23 dollars a week for a lesson and a group class and $30 a month to rent his 1/8 size cello. I never realized that by the time he was in HS we would be able to make 2 good sized car payments with what we were paying in lessons for both our kids lol!</p>

<p>Yeah, the mileage on one of our cars skyrocketed when I was driving all over to ensembles and to NY twice a week for lessons. We won’t be putting on nearly as much mileage from now on. Also, I was surprised to learn that the average age of a car in the US is now 11.4 years, so our cars are not as old as they seem. In fact, it’s simply better fiscal management to keep your car going longer, college payments or not. I think cars are better built (unlike most manufactured objects) than in the past. Our 1982 Subaru was run into the ground by 1994, but our 2002 Honda Odyssey is still going strong. <a href=“http://www.edmunds.com/car-news/average-age-of-cars-in-us-jumps-to-record-high-of-114-years.html”>http://www.edmunds.com/car-news/average-age-of-cars-in-us-jumps-to-record-high-of-114-years.html&lt;/a&gt; Our 1998 Camry lasted 16 years.</p>

<p>P.S., I’ll bet those $300/hour teachers do not drive cars with duck-taped bumpers. ;)</p>

<p>There was a music festival that my D applied to, that asked the make, model, and mileage of our car. Oh my.
This thread has morphed into a very important discussion.</p>

<p>Juilliard and MSM precolleges run about $10K a year without any scholarship. Summer festivals seem to run about $1K a week, again without scholarship. Not everyone gets scholarship, so take that out of the equation for this post. Accompanist fees run from $50-80 an hour. A string instrument at the conservatory level, if you can possibly find a number, runs $20-50k? The right bow for the new instrument…you might get lucky spending $1500, but that could easily go to $5K. Just applying for festivals each summer – $500 goes out in a flash. Want to visit your kid at the delightful summer festival? And drag the whole family along? Hotels, food, travel: $500-800. Your precollege tuition includes lessons. Yes, but precollege is only 30 weeks. What about all the break weeks? And additional lessons to prepare for the prescreening video? Oh, and there’s the cost of making the video: finding the space, paying for your teacher to be part of that process, the accompanist. </p>

<p>So if you can’t afford these costs what does that say about the whole business we are in? Does your child not make it because he can’t afford the expensive music festival each summer? Or can’t go to precollege? </p>

<p>For the record, back to the original question: we are now auditioning teachers for various conservatories. So far the lesson rate has been $150-200 for an hour. No teacher has yet to say a sample lesson is free. I do think these professionals should be compensated. </p>

<p>We are all broke. Is the Odyssey as much of a gas guzzler as my 2007 Pilot? That thing is ridiculous! And here in Chicago at $4/gallon. Whew. I’m at least getting out and walking more. :-* HappyCello didn’t I read somewhere that cellists buy extra plane tickets for the instrument? lol NOOOOOO!</p>

<p>P.S., I’ll bet those $300/hour teachers do not drive cars with duck-taped bumpers. ;)</p>

<p>Yes, those of us with small instruments can be grateful that we are not paying to fly basses and cellos around! The Odyssey gets about 21 mgh on the highway if it’s not too loaded-down. Not as bad as an SUV, but not great. On the other hand, it’s paid-for…</p>

<p>Wow, GH, we think alike, I drive a 2002 Odyssey, too and yeah, it is about 21, 22 on the highway or so. Speaking as a pretty much retired gearhead (I don’t have the time to work on cars these days, and also my skills are probably so so), the cars today, I don’t care how many people claim the ‘old cars were great’, are for the most part infinitely superior. Yeah, I have heard someone whose cadillac back in the day got 100k miles on it, but these days even relatively cheap cars can give you over 200k, and the maintenance is so much less. Sorry, but back in the day, pre 1980, if a car had 30 or 40k, for the most part you started wanting to dump it, the engines would start to burn oil, the transmissions would fail, and in places where you are in winter, rust out (think of how many cars you see these days with corrosion, most of the ones I see are 25 years old or older). Yeah, the cars are expensive, but to try and keep a car back in the day the way you can now, it would cost you a lot more in repairs (and I am not even talking the Italian sports car I once had <em>lol</em>). </p>

<p>I think this is an important discussion, debating starting a new thread. The reality of music education these days is that unlike prior generations, it takes massive support from an early age, you simply don’t go from being a decent student in a school orchestra or band and get into a competitive program, and while that has been true on piano and violin and cello for a long time, it is hitting all aspects of music. I have told the story about a prior teacher of my S’s, who had been basically an okay violinist in high school, who got into one of the higher level conservatories, and got into a pretty high level professional orchestra (ie actually is full time,pays decently, etc) right out of college…and they wouldn’t be able to do that today, I can almost guarantee it. Music schools and music teachers talk about the lack of diversity, the lack of kids from certain economic levels, racial groups and so forth, and a lot of that is the cost of it, and it isn’t just the cost of conservatory or pre college programs, it is the cost to get in there. Getting into a top prep program like Juilliard or CIM and so forth is competitive as all get out, you could have 150 kids competing for 6 slots on violin at a place like Juilliard (depends on the year and circumstances, these days probably is 20 slots or so). It usually means studying with a high level teacher at 100+ an hour, it means a lot of other things, too. </p>

<p>If you are a violinist or I would presume cellist, getting a decent instrument can cost you between 20-50k. We went through that last summer, and put a lot of time and angst into getting the instrument, we went to a lot of places, my S probably tried several hundred instruments, and the reality was to get the kind of sound and quality and projection needed, there were very few instruments <20k that were even in the running. And then there are the festivals, the special programs, the music, etude books, and then if they are practicing the way they should, bow rehairings, that with a really good place runs 70 or 80 bucks (or more).</p>

<p>We can kid ourselves that the horatio alger story holds true, that the kid with the dream entering school who has not had the opportunity to study with a high level teacher and so forth, but it simply isn’t true. I have seen kids from modest backgrounds who have made it, but usually it is because someone noticed them and got them the help they needed, or they had parents who knew how to navigate things. A kid from an underrepresented group, let’s say someone black or hispanic, may have an easier time, but even there, it takes knowing who to talk to, knowing how to navigate, to get it.And of course something that CC is here for in the first place, trying to even understand what is out there, unless you get exposed to the world of music, it is kind of a rude awakening, I bet if you polled people not familiar with the music world, most of them would tell you the horatio alger kind of thing of course can go on in music, that it doesn’t matter what you do in high school, it can work out…and it isn’t that simple.</p>

<p>I think my frustration is that knowing how hard it is, that the music schools love to pretend that seriously studying music (talking classical here) is this egalitarian thing, that kids with talent and passion are their joy, when leaving out that with all the talent and joy and passion in the world, without access they are often dead at the starting gate. The proof of this can be seen with the influx of incredibly talented kids from Asia or even Asian American kids, with the kids from Asia they tend either to be from well off families (little emperors of China, kids from well off Korean families), or in the case of China, access to state funded schools that search out talented kids, prep them, and then the kids can earn scholarships to top conservatories, and in all the cases, the kids have had high levels of support from the time they are small. </p>

<p>Great discussion morphed and pre-morphed…we’re driving our Odyssey and Acura both into the ground, while the two grad school bound kids got the “new” used cars as they need them for gigs/jobs. As for paying for lessons…we have always assumed the answer is yes, and been delightfully surprised and thankful when they say no. One teacher did ask for $ for a second lesson…no surprise there and perfectly understandable…funny thing is that was D’s only rejection…think they had a real disconnect and it is possible the second lesson revealed that…which we view as a good thing- much better to find that out now and after 100.00 lesson fee than next year mid semester when we would be getting the upset phone calls.</p>

<p>@mymble-
I agree, and as I wrote earlier, I think teachers have the right to charge for their time, that is up to them, and I think it is really, really important to see what a teacher is like rather than taking it on faith…some of the ‘greatest’ teachers out there might not work well for a particular student, and that 100 bucks is worth avoiding grief of changing teacher later, especially if the school only has one teacher. </p>

<p>@musicprnt absolutely- and I am assuming she will go through this all again when it comes time to choose a grad program …so some of the $ spent on lessons with teachers now was equally valuable for the future as some of the teachers were truly marvelous but she felt would be better suited for Grad study. </p>