<p>We’re going through that right now (as in this week!) with our own grad-bound violinist. </p>
<p>1995 Odyssey here. Great for transporting the cello to lessons all those years… I got better as the years went by to swallow my pride and ask for scholarships. It’s always hard at first to admit that you just can’t afford to pay for things you feel are essential for your child.</p>
<p>@spiritmanager-
Yep, it is. One blessing with our S is he knows how much we have sacrificed, he understands how hard it is to pay for everything and so forth, and besides doing his utmost to use what we have given him, he also understands when we can’t do certain things and he gets mad at us when he thinks we spend too much money on him:). It is funny, I hear all these blow hards talking about parents who aren’t doing the right thing for their children, how people are selfish, don’t work towards their children’s futures (usually as an excuse for why some people are falling further behind IME), and I see music students and their families, who sacrifice so much, where the kids really seem to know what they are being given and push forward, and all I can think of is “you clowns never met music students and their families”</p>
<p>I have never though of it as sacrifice. Not that it isn’t! I just have never thought of it that way. I just feel blessed that we can invest in her gift. I mean I’m sure you all feel the same way. Of course there are some things we must have wanted and didn’t get but I can’t figure out what they are right now because this music thing is on the plate now. When we started we had no idea where it would lead and have just been following it’s lead every since. And weighing what we need to do and what we don’t. This board has been an immense help. I wish I had discovered it years ago. </p>
<p>I guess if D had stopped being interested then I would have obliged but she hasn’t. And so many kids have stopped. Our kids are rare! She was in the NATS competition last month and so many kids that she was used to seeing over the years have stopped singing. When it’s time for college majors to be chosen kids and parents I’m sure are not convinced that this is the career they want to invest in. Yet we listen to music everyday. We would die without it. It colors our world in ways we are not even aware of it. </p>
<p>I have to make a correction. I guess I did think of it as a sacrifice when my older sister went with us to a voice lesson and saw me pay the teacher for the month. Her eyes bugged out! lol</p>
<p>Perhaps we don’t actually think of it as a sacrifice @Dradsmom ( good post by the way:) because we are seeing our kids pursue their dream. You are right, the money could have gone to a zillion other things, but investing in your child’s dream is priceless, and since I’m starting to sound like a credit card commercial LOL, I’ll try to stop…except to say, my parents refused to fund my arts dreams, even when I had been accepted at some prestigious programs- would not fill out the financial aid and no help from them whatsoever…as far as I can tell it was a boy girl thing- my brother was worth the investment, girls not so much, and some fear mixed in. I think from that experience, I learned the value of being behind your child in every way you can. We never dreamed our kids would go into the arts…it just happened and once they set their feet on that path we got behind them and all three have not looked back yet. Supporting them actually takes putting aside your own pride and ego because there are enough people standing on the sidelines placing bets that you are funding a fool’s dream. Unlike some other pursuits, these kids are putting everything out there for the world to see and judge. (not saying at all that the other professions do not have the same risk or need the same commitment- just not quite so visible) I honestly do not know how successful any of them can be without this kind of support and yes, sacrifice. Sorry to go so far off the beaten path here, just getting to the end of a long year and feeling very reflective:)</p>
<p>@mymble-
Well written, I think a lot of us could see ourselves in what you wrote. As far as people judging, it really depends on their value system and such,to be honest, most of the people I talk to about my son and his dreams are in awe of what he is doing. They know how difficult it is,but they also know that dreams are important,too, and that many of them, like many of us, had far too many people saying “what use is a dream?”. I am sure if you post this on some of the other CC boards, where parents are all hyped up on their kids getting into Ivies so they can become investment bankers and make $$$$, the response would be very different. I am surprised how few people have said that, maybe because the people I tend to be around don’t see work as the be all and end all, rather an end to a means:)</p>
<p>@musicprnt such good words- it’s funny but older people seem to be very encouraging and supportive as you describe, the second guessing and raised eyebrow behavior tends to be from peers and slightly older who just view us as being impractical…they are coming from a point of view that says, get a well paying job and just pursue arts as a hobby. There is certainly nothing wrong with that scenario it just isn’t ours. I quit trying to explain it years ago…they don’t understand why we would pay for sample lessons, or for that matter why we would pay what we do for regular lessons…but as someone else pointed out…parents who might be aghast at the cost of pursuing music will at the same time be shelling out large sums for their children to play sports. It is, as you point out, a difference in values. This board is such a great place in large part because it provides a place to have these kinds of conversations and get some perspective- something frequently needed in this journey!</p>
<p>Adding to the morph! As we reflect this week on the audition season I have asked myself many “what-if” questions. What if DS had done summer camps/festivals? (He did none). What if we were able to visit schools prior to auditions for sample lessons? What if he played his audition on a better instrument? (Do most students really have $20K-50K instruments? - son auditioned on a $3000 viola). Would these things have made a difference or is it really about how well they play for the audition? </p>
<p>We are fortunate in that our son has had an amazing private teacher who has made up for many of these things and we are grateful that DS has some really fabulous options! And I am eternally grateful for all of my CC friends who have helped is through this process!</p>
<p>@MWstringmom good questions- my D and I were just having this discussion yesterday and we came to the conclusion that while some may wish there to be a formula, it really is an individual thing. Programs and instruments can help certainly but they can’t create talent where there is none and the lack of them didn’t hurt your son, who obviously is a talented player.</p>
<p>As for particulars, …Yes, we finally bought the expensive instrument and costly bow…but that was 2 years ago, and would have done nothing for my D before she was ready to play such an instrument. The fact that your son did so well on a less expensive instrument speaks to his abilities and is a good thing- there will be more instruments ahead :)</p>
<p>As for summer programs we did them, but not nearly as much as some- my D had friends who were coming from one program and leaving for another some summers…they literally played all summer in program after program and some of them, having paid for the full 3 or 6 weeks, would forfeit and leave early or come late because of overlaps. There is simply no way of knowing if that kind of thing works but again that is a choice…simply not one that would have worked for us- perhaps it does for others-kids are definitely wired differently and some love that kind of thing.</p>
<p>At the risk of sounding sappy, what we came up with was that each person has to develop their artistry and talent to the best of their abilities, as they can afford and on the timeline that works for them…and we never let anyone tell us we can’t achieve something because we didn’t do “x, y & z”, go to some particular place or school or have the right “whatever”. Congratulations to your son on his acceptances. If your household is anything like ours, we are breathing a sigh of relief at having got this far, while now facing the “how do I choose?” dilemma - a wonderful problem to have for which we are enormously grateful! Best wishes!!!. </p>
<p>And LOL- sorry for veering off the path any more- this is still the sample lesson thread ;)))</p>
<p>Speaking of spending money versus talent. One of my son’s friends never went to a single camp and was an excellent cellist and has a bright future ahead of him. I do think it helps to start at a young age and to know that’s what you want to do. My son just announced he wants to major in music as a junior. Before he wasn’t practicing as much because he was focused on his academics. Now he has a lot of catching up to do but thankfully he has supportive teachers that will help him get up to speed.</p>
<p>As to sample lessons. Sample lessons have been a confidence builder considering my son just started taking it serious the fall of junior year. </p>
<p>I think we need to start a how to convince husband it’s worth spending money on thread. My husband is slowly warming up but is still grumpy about it. I do have him convinced a 4 week camp might be the best option. My son is a young somewhat immature junior and will be barely 18 when he heads to college. We’re hoping a longer camp will do more for him besides learn music. Any thoughts on that?</p>
<p>There is no formula and there are kids whose parents send them to every summer music camp, they do multiple lessons a week, have expensive instruments, maybe get into a top level prep program, and then have trouble getting into a good program, whereas there are kids who have a good teacher, but haven’t done the summer programs and so forth, and get into the top programs…the path varies, and there is no magic formula. </p>
<p>With instruments, those hearing the audition know the difference between a great instrument and a modest one. With string instruments, a modest instrument can play well but for example, doesn’t have the ability to project or certain elements of tone that a more expensive one does, but it allows the student to play even complex pieces. On the other hand, a less expensive instrument may not be able to handle requirements of a certain piece, like an instrument that is dead in the upper ranges for example…but there are more expensive instruments that can’t do that, either. </p>
<p>The way I look at it, it boils down to a bunch of cost versus benefit things, and there are things that can give a student an edge in getting into a good program, but that also can be made up by having the kind of talent and preparation that knocks the socks off of auditioners. </p>
<p>So what do I mean? Okay, kid does a music festival, and a teacher at school X works with him/her there…teacher gets to know the student, remembers them. Kid auditions at school X, and the teacher remembers the kid, the panel gives the thumbs up to the kid, teacher says he’ll have the kid study in his studio…</p>
<p>As opposed to student Y, who auditions, who the panel says okay to admitting, but no teacher, including said teacher, say they want to teach him/her…they don’t get in. </p>
<p>Another kid goes to a prep program associated with a music conservatory/school, has a teacher who teaches in the college level program…they are more likely to get in, because the panel probably knows them, and their current teacher would continue on (whereas a student who works with a teacher in prep who doesn’t teach at the college level, prob has a good chance of getting admitted, but has to find a teacher, so they are at a disadvantage).</p>
<p>Student who has access to high level youth groups or chamber programs learns how to audition and how to perform, student without that may have less experience with auditioning. </p>
<p>On the other hand, if a kid goes to summer programs but the programs aren’t particularly rigorous or the people teaching there are not at programs a kid wants to get into, might not do much for them. A poorly prepared student or one with marginal talent playing a 100k violin isn’t going to get much benefit from it (Have seen that one directly, S saw a lot of kids at auditions, probably from well off families, who were playing some amazing instruments, who he heard play and said they were nowhere near the level for the program they were auditioning at. </p>
<p>Basically, on an audition, it comes out to a series of related things that get you in, and the various edges or pieces add up to the ability to get admitted, but in the end it is serendipity.</p>
<p>In the end, I think what gets a kid to where they can get admitted is in the parents truly supporting them, and it isn’t just financial, it also is in believing in them and supporting something that to many seems like a pipe dream or something not ‘useful’, it is making the effort to help as much as we can that matters. If you were indifferent, as my parents were when I was doing music,.or even seeing it as a ‘hobby’, it just isn’t going to happen, and it takes a lot of support in the form of talking through doubts and navigating a byzantine world Machiavelli would love:)</p>
<p>@musicprnt – excellent, excellent notes. I would add that some kids are a little slower getting to where they need to be. They may not have had good teachers, or performance opportunities, or they may be slower maturing, making it harder for them to discipline themselves or know what they want. So the things that build confidence – contest wins, chair placements, etc., are a long time coming. Some of these kids will get discouraged, even though they have talent, and quit. Some of these kids will keep at it, through the disappointments, the lack of validation, the rejections from high-level conservatories. And yet they may get there. A little later, with a few more bruises, but they may get there. Impossible, though, without a ton of parental support (or someone’s), both financial and emotional.</p>
<p>As to whether music festivals/ camps are worth spending money on. This depends somewhat on the particular program, but we found they were very valuable to help my son clarify his desire to continue to study music after HS. The programs he went to were very intense with lots of individual practice time expected. Despite the rigor he loved every one and felt at home and energized. The interaction with other high level players is very important as well and despite how many times I might have told him that competition is going to be very tough as he pursues a career in music, that didn’t penetrate as well as seeing some of those other players in action over the course of a summer festival. I saw him gain a lot of independence and maturity at all the festivals he attended.</p>
<p>My son just sent several emails last night working on arranging visits to two schools in the same city. I helped him to draft the messages and when asking the teacher about sample lessons he asked if that was something that they do either within the department or on the side. On his instrument and genre most of the instructors do a lot of gigging and teaching and are adjunct/associate faculty and not tenured. In that case it seemed polite to ask that way since their time isn’t necessarily all “paid for” by the university. He received a wonderful, warm response from one already this morning with availability on one of the days that we were hoping to be there. This teacher does lessons on the side and charges $100 which seems completely reasonable to me.</p>
<p>This program does audio file auditions so it is well worth it to have a full hour in person with a highly regarded teacher who could be deciding about his admission and scholarship amounts next winter.</p>
<p>I hadn’t looked at this thread since it first started a few months back. I’m loving the conversation!</p>
<p>It’s also made me realize how lucky we’ve been on this path. S was late to the game all the way around and we were both very naive to the process. He’s played guitar since he was 9 but didn’t start a formal music program until he begged his way into the HS band as an incoming freshman with just a few months of private percussion lessons under his belt. </p>
<p>Up until the middle of his junior year, he was planning to major in math or physics. Then one day during Christmas break, he came to me and said he’s been thinking that he’d like to major in music. I thought ‘duh, you only eat, sleep, and breath it’. </p>
<p>His private lesson teacher has been so supportive and very instrumental in guiding us through this process. I’m not musical at all and am completely new to all of this. S has never attended a camp or festival (we didn’t know these existed until recently) and only took a lesson with one of the four professors he auditioned for (we did pay for it), though he did attend a clinic put on by the professor with whom he’ll be studying. Somehow, it’s all worked out and he got into a UG program he never thought he would. </p>
<p>This forum has been so great! I only wish I’d known about it sooner.</p>
<p>I guess I came in a little late for the question in the topic line but I’ll add my $150 anyway. One variable to add to whether or not you get charged for a lesson is if the teacher knows your teacher, or knows of your teacher or in our case knows the director of the youth orchestra you are in. Also we had one teacher that although she didn’t know any of the people we knew, respected that we had traveled 1200 miles just to see her. One other teacher was really funny in that she told us that we could either pay for a lesson or just talk about the school. The idea of driving half way across the country to a school and NOT take a real lesson had me laughing for days.</p>
<p>The second instructor got back to us this morning and he is on for a lesson which is also “on the side”. We included that in the question about arranging one and the jazz studies chair subsequently confirmed that is how it’s done. To me it seems like a matter of respect to a gigging and teaching musician to offer up front and recognize that lessons are part of how they pay their bills. At any rate . . . they both answered back within a day which is what I’d hoped for and with a personal phone number to set up a time as things get closer. :D/ </p>
<p>I didn’t know what I was doing this past year, but I just assumed I should always ask right up front- about half charged a fee and half did not, with one requesting we donate to their Visiting Artist’s fund which we were happy to do. As @saintfan says - this is part of their living and they certainly deserve the respect- if they didn’t we wouldn’t be considering them to teach our kids.</p>