Do You Want the Blue Pill or the Red Pill? - Part 1

College Search & Selection
21

Yup, good point, that totally gets lost on c/c, and SJSU in the bay area, tons of grads in tech companies here.

“The undergraduate experience will be radically different at MIT, Stanford and Berkeley,”

These schools are ranked so close in engineering that students/families will look at other things - cost, fit for sure.

“You can take the blue pill and follow the rankings blindly, or you can take the red pill as you did and see the whole, only then deciding which path is right.”

People definitely use rankings for making an application list, but before Covid, they relied on things like campus visits, culture to figure out where to attend. But that would also include academic reputation probably as the second biggest factor after cost, which would still favor the higher ranked schools.

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22

People don’t realize how circular and self perpetuating this actually is. The USNWR engineering ranking is based completely on reputation. They determine that simply by asking a Dean and/or faculty member(s) to rate other institutions on a scale of 1-5. That’s it.

This is a fascinating excerpt from Malcom Gladwell’s New Yorker Essay on the college rankings:

“Some years ago, similarly, a former chief justice of the Michigan supreme court, Thomas Brennan, sent a questionnaire to a hundred or so of his fellow-lawyers, asking them to rank a list of ten law schools in order of quality. “They included a good sample of the big names. Harvard. Yale. University of Michigan. And some lesser-known schools. John Marshall. Thomas Cooley,” Brennan wrote. “As I recall, they ranked Penn State’s law school right about in the middle of the pack. Maybe fifth among the ten schools listed. Of course, Penn State doesn’t have a law school.”

They put Penn State there based on one thing, their perception of the cachet of the brand. That’s precisely why Harvard, a long time back water engineering program is now ranked 21 even though they only offer 3 ABET degrees. They outrank Washington, Colorado, Wisconsin, Virginia Tech, Northeastern, RPI, Florida, Case, Iowa State and Mines. I think few in engineering circles would put Harvard where it is.

The defenders will point to Harvard’s recent addition of a new science and engineering facility. By that logic though, Alabama, ranked 102, should be much further up the rankings.

Now add to that the fact that USNWR ranks non-PhD granting colleges and universities into a separate list, one that also has flaws. HMC currently ranks as second for Mechanical Engineering. They don’t offer ME. Cal Poly currently ranks 8th overall in engineering, but none of the constituent majors that make up the composite rank worse than 3rd. In fact 5 of the 7 are ranked #2 or #1.

How does one compare programs like Olin, Harvey Mudd, Cooper Union, Lafayette and Bucknell to Harvard, Cal, Iowa State, etc.?

Personally, besides cost escalation, I believe college rankings has been one of the most harmful things to the American post-secondary education landscape.

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23

Penn State Dickinson College of Law.

If the survey was done prior to the year 2000, respondents probably confused Penn State with Penn (University of Pennsylvania which is more commonly referred to as “Penn”).

FWIW Chief Justice Thomas Brennan of the Michigan State Supreme Court is credited with founding what is widely regarded as among the very worst of the 200+ ABA accredited law schools = Cooley School of Law. A ridiculous diploma factory mill with shockingly low standards for admission.

24

It was indeed. Maybe they confused Penn with PSU or maybe they felt that’s where PSU belonged based on the other institutions on the list. I haven’t read the original, just Gladwell’s reference to it. Either way, it’s a problem. There’s another excerpt regarding hospital rankings. It’s a nice illustration of how fragile the concept of “institutional reputation” is. It is the sole “metric” in the USNWR methodology for engineering.

25

It is a joke. Peer assessment is 20% of the ranking methodology. Most colleges throw these surveys out (recent response rates were 36.4% for the spring and summer 2020 survey and 43% for the spring 2019 survey).

Even worse is that Deans/other execs report they give the survey to staffers, so an admissions rep or other young professional is filling at least some proportion of these surveys.

26

Yep, and unlike the full USNWR methodology, for engineering that’s all there is.

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/undergraduate-engineering-programs-methodology

27

So, what’s your top 10 list? Maybe one list that doesn’t take cost into consideration and another that does. What are your criteria?

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28

FYI, I just got back from SLO and there’s a lot of new construction going on at CP SLO. Here’s a couple projects opening the Fall of 2021:

Frost Center
https://afd.calpoly.edu/facilities/planning-capital-projects/project-news/frost-center/

Science and Agriculture Teaching and Research Complex

And Scout Coffee is coming to campus. Fantastic coffee:

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29

That’s a great question. Having attended a University with giant lectures, I have a significant bias towards smaller classes now, especially for the early foundational classes like math and physics. I also feel that students that have more access to project based collaborative learning through labs, clubs and capstone project(s), and the facilities and staff to support them, are better prepared to be practicing engineers. Sure, every ABET program has some of this, but some schools do it better than others. I like programs that start in major. They can grade hard, but I have a bias against schools with reputations as grinds. There are so many good options of all flavors, big, small, state, private, etc., that I don’t think a student need subject themselves to that environment unless it really speaks to them. Finally, cost. We set a hard cut in 2014 of $200k net because our state flagship at under $100K is perfectly sufficient. It doesn’t meet all the criteria above, but their outcomes are still good. I didn’t include outcomes because outcomes to a large degree are more student and location based than institution based. All that said, in no particular order, here’s 9.

Harvey Mudd
Rose-Hulman
Cal Poly
Olin
MIT
WPI
Lehigh
Case
Rice

I think the cost question is even more nuanced. It is highly family dependent. As far as outcomes go, on a pure salary basis and ability to get into a graduate program, an easy argument can be made to choose the cheapest ABET accredited school for most engineering disciplines. When you get into the fringe, financial quantitative analysis for example, that’s a different story. An counter argument can be made that paying more money buys a different experience. Some families have that luxury. I always add the caveat to consider opportunity cost.

Lastly, this is my preference, based on my biases. They are criteria I personally feel are important, but others won’t.

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30

Here is a relatively easy to get full ride scholarship at a college with ABET accredited programs in chemical, civil, computer, electrical, and mechanical engineering:

https://amspub.abet.org/aps/name-search?searchType=institution&keyword=prairie%20view

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31

My D felt the same way. She wanted a first year engineering design class and to jump right into engineering. Hands on learning, well supported co-op optional, and senior design.

Purdue checked off all her boxes, and would fall under your cost constraints for an OOS applicant even today.

That ship has sailed for Lehigh (but they were on D’s list too).

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32

What’s your list if cost is not a factor? The reason I ask is that such a list would be of value to everyone - all they would need to do is start at the top of the list and filter out-of-budget schools. Also, is your list for ME?

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33

The rankings are flawed but at this point, you have to assume, as every GC does, that students and their parents will have seen them. Also any engineering ranking with MIT and Stanford at the top will be taken as extremely credible. If you want to poke holes at Berkeley, go for it, but you’re not going to get anywhere criticizing Stanford and MIT. I await your detailed report on why choosing Stanford for CS or MIT for EE is bad and instead they should choose the greatness that is CP-SLO.

“How does one compare programs like Olin, Harvey Mudd, Cooper Union, Lafayette and Bucknell to Harvard, Cal, Iowa State, etc.?”

Very few students are going to compare programs like that, affordability, distance from home, environment will eliminate many of them.

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34

First, I forgot one, Case.

Second, I think the list would be the same. Net cost is really related to need-based and merit based aid.

MIT was the only one that wouldn’t have made our arbitrary cut because we were full pay and they don’t give merit aid. Our son didn’t apply anyway. My priorities for this list and his priorities in vetting schools were somewhat, but not completely aligned. He really wanted a “typical college experience,” so he only applied to three on my list, CP, WPI and Case. Lehigh fit the bill, but he didn’t like it better than any of the ones he did apply to.

If we were to say cost is an significant factor, then my list is not good at all. Schools like ASU and Alabama would have to be in the mix unless the student had significant financial need.

35

So really no different than other other lists generated by other methods - highly reflective of your particular values. I can’t imagine that many would swap your list over the USN list (ME) if money was not an issue. Thanks for honesty though.

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36

Money wasn’t an object for us per se. Had we felt the best option could only be had by paying more, we would have. For the things that were important to our son, there’s no evidence that paying more would have bought any more. In fact, based on his priorities, paying more to buy a higher ranked school would have bought less. Although it’s retrospective confirmation bias, I think his outcome supports that notion.

I think we buy into the rankings folly because we Americans need to be told what’s “best.” If everyone knew that at least for engineering there are zero objective metrics in the USNWR ranking, they might not be so beholden to them.

There was a time when people ranked with a broad ghestault, sort of good, better, best. I miss those days.

37

Welcome to the Good-Outcome Club. I’ve always felt that, as a parent, if you can look back and be satisfied (or overjoyed) with the outcome, then - mission accomplished.

USNWR lists are always good to start multiple CC threads each year, so to the extent it gets people to talk, ask questions, and ultimately develop their own unique ranking list i think it serves a good purpose.

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38

I’m not taking the bait. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: First, I never said either was bad. I said it depends on your priorities. More importantly, I don’t want this to devolve into one school versus the next. Like I said, I believe in the good, better, best concept. For various reasons, I believe all three fall into the best category. I have plenty of anecdotal information including very close family members that went to MIT and Stanford, but it is really a distraction to go there.

I can say that his outcome for ME has been just fine. Just two years out, he’s is far above the median earnings reported by the highest school on College Scoreboard for ME (surprisingly SUNY Maritime). That’s without including equity.

Why wouldn’t families do this if they would consider two extremely expensive programs on opposite coasts?

39

Nothing like taking something subject “best” college (for what, for whom, compared to what options, etc) and creating a formula that applies numeric values to certain aspects of various instutions and weights those values, summing up the totals and producing a list that can be sorted by aggregate weighted values to produce something that appears to now be objective. If you don’t like the results of one ranking service, there are many others that may well better align with your views. If not, create your own or pound the table as they say (if the facts are on your side, pound the facts; if the law is on your side, pound the law; if neither is on your side pound the table).

Kids don’t come with control groups. No matter how good the outcome for your kid (however you are defining “good outcome”), there may well have been at least other other option on the table which would have produced a “better” outcome. And no matter how less/not “good” the outcome may be, there may well have been no other options on the table at the time which would have produced a “better” outcome. What you do know if the outcomes would have been different (at least on some level).

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40

Indeed. Like I said, retrospective confirmation bias.

In reality you can only base decisions on averages. The thread keeps getting dragged away to this school versus that, but as long as we’re there, CP, MIT and Stanford are all within $5k of one and other on earnings for MEs. All trail Kettering, SUNY Maritime, Duke, Penn, Caltech and Michigan. None are so outlandishly far ahead that anyone should base their decision on that metric alone.