Do your chances increase in getting into Columbia if you are an URM?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Columbia University
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<p>I didn’t link the OP the common data set because I never used it nor would have a link to give to the OP. When I applied for college I didn’t bother with all the numbers or data set or whatever. Besides, if what people are posting is just repetitive of what’s on the common data set then it’d be silly to post the data set if it’s already been said. </p>

<p>I think it’s honestly a little offensive that you think a kid’s opinion isn’t valuable at all in helping other people with college choices. Is a parents opinion valuable at all in your eyes? The college application process changes with the times. I think kids, adults, whoever, all have unique insights on the processes, schools, etc, that prove valuable opinions and advice. A “kid” (which technically most poster here are probably over 18 so this isn’t the most correct term) has recently been through admissions process. There’s valuable insight here. A parent knows the financial requirements and maybe even attended college. There’s valuable insight here as well. </p>

<p>I might know “NOTHING” as you so nicely put it. But I know what I went through in the process. I know my experience and that’s something invaluable to share. I know enough to offer my opinion and advice just like others. You don’t need qualifications to offer advice. Those offering advice don’t know “Nothing” regardless of how much you belittle them.</p>

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<p>There is no valuable insight on any post that was given to the OP. Any kid poster who is giving advice to another who hasn’t even gone through the process themselves is meaningless. What makes “Joe” know what “Johns” chances are when they are both rising seniors in HS? </p>

<p>I’m still not seeing the point of these threads.</p>

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<p>I’m not supporting the idea of chance me threads. What I am saying is that you shouldn’t consider someone’s insight/opinions/advice meaningless. Do you need qualifications to offer advice? No. </p>

<p>Again, I find it offensive how you specify “kid poster” rather than just “poster” in general. Honestly, I’ve dealt with quite a few people older than myself in life with this sort of attitude. I find it rather old fashioned. Age is no measure of meaning, insight, or intelligence. Age is no measure of worth (in life, in speech, or in insight). </p>

<p>Yes, obviously if you haven’t gone through the process then there is quite a bit you wont know. But if “Joe” knows the average SAT score for “John’s” school while John doesn’t then Joe can help John by disclosing this information. Joe can tell John that he shouldn’t have only Ivies on his list. John can tell Joe about a school he knows that sounds like it fits Joe’s interests. Then Joe can look into it. Communication betters the world. On a global scale obviously the results of increased interconnectedness are clear, but the same concept applies to communicating on a person-to-person basis about something as mundane as college advice.</p>

<p>I’m not advocating for chance me threads. I am, however, advocating for the value of advice and insight and sharing it with others.</p>

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<p>The value and insight given by “peers” on these threads are meaningless, and often detrimental. And yes, I will say “kid poster” because to me that means they have no life experience and their advice should be taken with a grain of salt. No HS kid knows first hand about college admissions, at best it is heresay from friends. That is not advice that I would recommend that any applicant take to heart.</p>

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<p>There are “kids” on here who may have siblings you have gone through the process, like myself. Before I applied to schools I also interned with a private college counselor, worked with my high school counselor, and did many hours of researching about my possible schools. Even before I applied I knew a great deal about admissions, though I’d had no “life experience”. Though I have a lot of information, that does not mean I am an expert, but just about every on here isn’t. Many people on here will have opinions based on prior knowledge, but we won’t know where they got this information.</p>

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<p>I wouldn’t consider any kind of insight “meaningless.” There’s meaning in everything, you just have to look deep enough to find it. If you cant find the meaning then you just haven’t thought enough about it.</p>

<p>Would a “kid poster” have less life experience than someone of an older age? Maybe, maybe not. Some people go through an incredible amount in life before they even graduate high school. Some have been through more than you or I could even imagine (much less have experienced). I wouldn’t say that someone whose lived say 17 or 18 years of life has “no life experience.” Again, your condescending approach towards anyone younger than you doesn’t do much for me. </p>

<p>Advice is advice, it’s not an order or a law or anything of the sort. Naturally all advice should be taken with a grain of salt whether its from “kid posters” or adults or anyone else. It’s the applicants choice whether or not to take advice to heart, certainly. Most HS kids (though not all) dont know first-hand about the process. Are all chance me’s by high schoolers? Not at all. Do you need to have experienced something first hand to offer advice? Not at all. Again, I’m not defending or supporting chance me’s.</p>

<p>I’m not in high school anymore, but when I was going through the application process the best advice I got was from a 10 year old. Not my college grad parents, not my GC, not my teachers, not my adcom family friends at the Ivies. The best advice I got was from someone who hadn’t experienced any of it- and offered more insight than those who had. I’m glad I didn’t have such a close-minded view that I couldn’t consider advice from anyone, and I’d urge OP and everyone else to listen to all the advice they’re given. Whether or not they choose to take that advice is their decision. </p>

<p>But we digress from the point of this thread. It’s not a chance me nor a debate about the value of the opinions of others. I think we’ve both said our opinion. While I suppose we haven’t reached any agreements, this isn’t the proper place for us to debate.</p>

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<p>I think this is the link he really needs</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/1228264-race-college-admission-faq-discussion-9-a.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/1228264-race-college-admission-faq-discussion-9-a.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>And the “actual results” threads from the African Amercian Students Forum.</p>

<p>The answer is more obvious, or less obvious, depending on your persepctive. I always end up thinking of it this way; you’ve got five babies in a nursery, and all you know about them is race. Which one has the best chances of getting into Columbia? Ask yourself the same every year after that…Five random kids; who has the best chances? Yes, there are “yeah, but ifs…”, and thats were individual perspectives change. I think my perspective is influenced by the hundreds of babies I haves seen come through that hypothetical nursery. YMMV.</p>

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<p>I have a quick question here, how do we know that the OP is AA?? Am I missing something?</p>

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<p>Thanks lagging. I def. agree with you. Before coming to this site, I didn’t really understand how competitive some of these schools were. This site has def. made me realize that I need to study a lot more to get in.</p>

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<p>GA2012MOM: I understand what you are saying as well. But understand that nothing anyone posts here will not deter me from applying to Columbia. Most people are telling me to “step my game up” so I can have a better chance at getting in and frankly I do not see anything wrong with that.</p>

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<p>*will deter</p>

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<p>Bamboobanga: My highschool is in Brooklyn, NY.</p>

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<p>GA2012MOM. I deeply resent your presumption that we are all “kids” offering meaningless advice. I am NOT this OP’s peer! I have an undergrad degree from UChicago. I earned my PH.D from Harvard, where I also taught. Like you I do not buy the premise of “chancing,” but on occasion I do chime in on threads started by posters seeking advice or clarification. I do so from the INFORMED perspective of someone who attended elite schools, taught at elite schools, and who has also worked to advise college applicants.</p>

<p>Neither I nor any other poster has told OP he WILL get into Columbia. We have all accurately advised OP to work to become a competitive applicant. You have raised valid points but are attacking a “straw man,” in this instance, as NO ONE has “Chanced” this OP and told OP he or she is getting into Columbia. I, indeed, encouraged OP to become a COMPETITIVE APPLICANT, and not count on being only a good URM applicant. And I feel morally qualified to make such comments from my “position” as a fellow URM.</p>

<p>I agree with you in theory about the dubious value of much “information” purveyed on CC. Much of what passes for comentary or advice is dubious; some of it is hurtful and actually pernicious. This is not such an occasion.</p>

<p>I actually log into CC much less these days, because I find the “vibe” often unpleasant and the mania over certain schools disturbing.</p>

<p>Full disclosure: a close relative is a proud member of Columbia’s
2016 class, therefore I feel a certain “kinship” to this forum, and hence my occasional participation here.</p>

<p>OP, glad you learned something. YES, STEP UP YOUR ACADEMIC GAME!!! And don’t be deterred. You can’t gain admission if you don’t apply. And if you don’t gain admission, YOU’LL SURVIVE!!!</p>

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<p>Thanks for the insightful response swingtime.</p>

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<p>swingtime, I am glad you stated your background; I wish every one who offered advice did so. It gives needed perspective. I try to stay off the “ids” forums, which I consider to be high school life and college life, and I stay off the chance threads as well. Some posts are SO hard to ignore. I think the hardest things to ignore is when people who post, post with such certainty, especially when those of us who hang out here, for better or worse, have gleaned the answers are less than certain.</p>

<p>“No, URM helps a good deal in admissions to ivy league and peer institutions.” What does a “good deal” mean?</p>

<p>“Anyone who is claiming that being an URM doesn’t help clearly doesn’t know much about the college admissions process. Just by taking a look at the class of 2016’s decision page you can notice an apparent trend of high-scoring ORM’s being rejected while lower scoring URM’s are accepted.” What exactly does that particular sample prove?</p>

<p>I DO like this one though;</p>

<p>“AA is a little overrated IMO when you’re talking about elite and exceptional schools. The achievement gap between whites and non whites occurs mostly in the middle. It’s like an hourglass, so they have no problem finding qualified minorities to admit.”</p>

<p>I don’t know exactly what that means, but it addresses the fact that there is not just one answer. When I allow myself to be titillated by the RACE FAQ, I think that is the most imported take home message. </p>

<p>Some where buried in version 9 of that endless thread is my favorite interesting nugget from the very old, but oft quoted research by Espenshade from which “No Longer Separate, Not Yet Equal” was derived.</p>

<p>“The penalty for scoring less than 1200 on the SAT is
significantly greater for African-American and Hispanic students than the
penalty for white students who score less than 1200 (Model 2). Similarly,
the reward (i.e., increased likelihood of admission) that is produced by
scoring more than 1300 is significantly smaller for African-American and
especially for Hispanic students than the reward for white students who
score more than 1300. Thus, we find that the underrepresented minority advantage is greatest for African-American and Hispanic applicants with SAT scores in the 1200–1300 range and not for applicants with relatively low scores (cf. Dugan et. al., 1996).”</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.princeton.edu/~tje/files/webAdmission%20Preferences%20Espenshade%20Chung%20Walling%20Dec%202004.pdf[/url]”>http://www.princeton.edu/~tje/files/webAdmission%20Preferences%20Espenshade%20Chung%20Walling%20Dec%202004.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Such a small group to be rocking every bodies world. Well, not everybody. </p>

<p>I often “shake my head”, when the person who is asking for advice seems especially new, naive, or vulnerable. OP, I’m glad that’s not you.</p>

<p>BTW, my father, I think in the 50’s, and my husband, in the 80’s went to Columbia, although I had NO idea of the significance of that until I came to CC in 2007. I went to Howard. Oh, and OP; we are from Brooklyn, and husband went to Brooklyn Tech!</p>

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<p>Shrinkwrap: What my personal anecdotal sample proves is the exact same as the study you cited in your post. Did you even bother to read the entirety of the statistical survey you posted? The information you ended up extrapolating from it and quoting in your post is misleading regarding the actual conclusions given by those statisticians. </p>

<p><a href=“http://www.princeton.edu/~tje/files/webAdmission%20Preferences%20Espenshade%20Chung%20Walling%20Dec%202004.pdf[/url]”>http://www.princeton.edu/~tje/files/webAdmission%20Preferences%20Espenshade%20Chung%20Walling%20Dec%202004.pdf&lt;/a&gt;
I think a more accurate representation of what their study was proving can be seen in the concluding section which stated “Being African American instead of white is worth an average of 230 additional SAT points on a 1600-point scale,” and “Other things equal, Hispanic applicants gain the equivalent of 185 points.” Both of those insights are more relevant to the question asked. So if we average 185 and 230 we get 207.5 points for being an under represented minority. Now I don’t know about you, but I consider that a “good deal” of an advantage over their white or ORM peers. (And yes I realize it goes on extensively about the benefits of legacy and athletics and a few other factors but since those weren’t relevant to the OP’s original question, I left them out.)</p>

<p>That 207.5 point increase is also what I was alluding to when I said to “take a look at the class of 2016’s decision page” because it demonstrates a clear indication of that. Clearly that is not a random sample, but even so, as far as anecdotal evidence goes it demonstrates my point well enough to justify adding to my original post. </p>

<p>The claims that peers don’t possess enough life experience to post valuable information on posts such as this are ludicrous. To think that a mother or someone else who applied to a college 18 (or more) years ago has more valuable insight than someone who is going through the process now is simply not true. </p>

<p>Just by looking at the admissions statistics over the last 12 years one can see that the acceptance rate has been cut in half, and as a result of that there are a lot more factors and nuances in the application process that weren’t as pronounced before. And as such, applicants who are applying in this generation have to be familiar with those in order to be able to adequately compete for these spots in highly selective universities. </p>

<p>I think Shrinkrap summed up the generational disconnect between the idiosyncrasies of the admissions process when she stated:
“BTW, my father, I think in the 50’s, and my husband, in the 80’s went to Columbia, although I had NO idea of the significance of that until I came to CC in 2007. I went to Howard. Oh, and OP; we are from Brooklyn, and husband went to Brooklyn Tech!”
That statement is just an example of how the average lay adult isn’t familiar with the idiosyncrasies of the admissions process such as legacy and URM. </p>

<p>All of that being said, I definitely think that the background of whom you take advice from should be an extremely important consideration when determining how much weight to give that advice. Swingtime seems to be a great source of information due to his background in the academia sector. However, advice from shrinkrap or GA2012MOM should probably be taken with a grain of salt.</p>

<p>Disclosure: I am an admit to the Columbia class of 2016 who has met with private college counselors and read multiple books on the application process and just has a genuine interest in how the process works.</p>

<p>By the way OP: If I were you, I would strongly consider applying ED to your top choice because that can give you a significant boost in admissions. (Since Shrinkrap is probably upset because I am using such vague terms like significant boost, I will include the actual statistics.) This year’s ED acceptance rate was 20% compared to the overall acceptance rate of 7.4% Thats almost a 13% advantage to applying ED, but keep in mind those numbers are skewed because the majority of recruited athletes apply ED so that accounts for a large portion of the ED acceptance rate.</p>

<p>Sources:</p>

<p>Columbia admissions data from 2000 till present:
<a href=“Columbia OPIR”>Columbia OPIR;

<p>Previously cited source that I pulled my quotes from:
<a href=“http://www.princeton.edu/~tje/files/webAdmission%20Preferences%20Espenshade%20Chung%20Walling%20Dec%202004.pdf[/url]”>http://www.princeton.edu/~tje/files/webAdmission%20Preferences%20Espenshade%20Chung%20Walling%20Dec%202004.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>“The information you ended up extrapolating from it and quoting in your post is misleading regarding the actual conclusions given by those statisticians.”</p>

<p>“Did you even bother to read the entirety of the statistical survey you posted?”</p>

<p>Of course I’ve read it, at least 5 times. Which “adult” on this forum hasn’t? Everyone knows the “extra points” part. I think fewer people realize what a small slice of the URM population gets the advantage. Or am I wrong about that? That’s the way I see it, but of course I recognize it is different from a person graduating high school. So you know lets say, five black kids going to an Ivy. I know not one. </p>

<p>Not one. And I daresay most people do not know one black kid going to an ivy. I think that is important. For some reason, every kid on CC trying to get into an ivy knows five black kids that got in, and yet there are maybe only 1000 black freshman going to top universities a year. </p>

<p>This is the part where Fabrizio says even one kid befitting from affirmative action is too many…and then the thread gets moved…</p>

<p>And I make no claim experience in this area, other than my own kids applying, and watching the forums between 2007 and now. You won’t see me giving anyone any advice. I will leave that to experts such as yourself. My expertise is with those with bigger problems than what school they got “cheated” out of.</p>

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<p>Source <a href=“http://www.jbhe.com/2011/12/jbhe-annual-survey-black-first-year-students-at-the-nations-leading-research-universities/[/url]”>http://www.jbhe.com/2011/12/jbhe-annual-survey-black-first-year-students-at-the-nations-leading-research-universities/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Consider that 215,000 black students took the SAT</p>

<p>And yes, the admission rates seem higher for many, but not all schools. But MY truth is not in the percentage, but in the actual number. I think CC students must know all the same black students! </p>

<p>Perhaps not the kids on the AA student forum though. Most are posting results from schools that other kids on CC do not make acceptance threads about.</p>

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<p>Well…that escalated quickly. To answer: yes being a URM does help as Columbia is a school that complies with basic AA standards and receives federal money for it. However, the numbers are still small so don’t get your hopes up.</p>

<p>As far as your scores, I got in with a 1900 SAT but I also had other things under my belt and almost perfect SAT IIs. Don’t coast if you can improve always. You’ll need that skill in college. Work your hardest to get your scores up just as a sign of good faith and make your essay sing! I noticed you said your school only offers a few activities. Is there anything else you can get into or any hobby you can capitalize on. Just a few ideas.</p>

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<p>@ColumbiaDiva- They have a literary magazine but I feel like it is too late to join that because they start in February. Besides that I have participated in every activity they had to offer.</p>