I dunno, but, it seems to me, if we limited our college searches to only schools with AAA ratings from Moodys, I think we’d only be discussing six colleges. I mean, really, even if you go down a few notches to let’s say, Aa3 (why do they all sound like battery sizes?), you’d still only be talking about a few dozen. So, where are people supposed to send their kids?
I wouldn’t want to send my kid to a school at risk of closing but nor am I that interested in sending him to a university that runs itself like a bank.
What they are doing with the money matters. The financial health is only part of it.
If by chance you are expressing in part a frustration with credit rating services with respect to institutions - I too share your frustrations. Each service has their disclaimers and histories of precognitive genius and stupendous failure.
Even an audit or an in depth credit risk analysis doesn’t necessarily identify all current issues or their full impact or which if any of the “possible alternative financial outcomes” will actually be achieved.
At the end of the day we can only use the various tools as they currently exist and acknowledge their limitations and operate within those strictures.
No.
- We considered one school’s financial rating a negative when my son was looking, but he eliminated from his list for other reasons anyway.
- I had recommended a certain college to a friend’s off-beat daughter as perfect for her… until I learned that it was not taking a full freshman class due to financial troubles. Then I quickly contacted my friend and alerted her to this issue, and she changed their college visitation plans.
Going to a college that has financial troubles may mean understaffed or eliminated majors, fewer top faculty and more adjuncts, less resources for student activities, poorly maintained facilities… and a degree that has less reputational value if the college later closes.
@Ivycover “At the end of the day we can only use the various tools as they currently exist and acknowledge their limitations and operate within those strictures.”
Agreed but there certainly are some telltale signs of trouble. Turnover of senior administrators, rating agency downgrades, prolonged deficit spending, declining revenue per student, flat lined enrolement numbers, an over reliance on FA to attract students, abandoned and failed fiscal plans and the absence of a publicly expressed path toward are a few.
I will go back and find it but I think it was Dave B that provided a checklist that detailed these type of concerns as precursors for failure, merger or dramatic change.
You know…changes can be made to even excellent colleges. Some of us here will remember when Tulane eliminated a good chunk of its engineering programs after Hurricane Katrina. And yes, this did affect students who were enrolled in those engineering fields of study…and many had to transfer elsewhere.
Tulane is viewed as a very fine university…even with some changes.
Back in the Stone Age, many folks were very concerned when most of the Seven Sister colleges became part of their male counterparts. At the end of the day…this didn’t matter, and none of these schools suffered.
Some colleges filled a niche that is no longer needed by as many students…plus other colleges have broadened their offerings to appeal to a broader range of students.
There is going to be change…some more predictable than others.
If you are not comfortable with how a college looks in any way…delete it from your application list. Some people will be willing to take a risk…while others just wont be willing to do so. Some of these at risk schools will close, and others will survive.
@Thumper1 “Most of the seven sisters became part of their male counterparts”
Just so you are factually correct only 1 (of 7) Seven sister school became part of their male counterpart and only two are now co ed with Vassar independent from its male counterpart Yale.
Specifically, Radcliffe merged completely into Harvard College in 1999, and is now a research institute and no longer an undergraduate institution.
Vassar declined an offer to merge with Yale University and became independently coeducational in 1969.
Agreed with your point about people taking and accepting varying degrees of risk. Personally I start with ensuring I have all the facts and then working towards informed decision but I respect your approach of accepting “Some of these at risk schools will close, and others will survive.”
Here is the way I look at it: My focus in helping my child find a college, or anything in life is finding a school or whatever that can best benefit said child. If it happens to be a school that has financial problems, issues, so be it. Yes, I would take those factors into consideration and all things equal, I would prefer and advocate for the school in. Enter financial position. Just as I would tend to be more attracted to a school higher in rankings and name recognition , all things equal. Sure thing I’d push for Harvard over “Havewell” or “Harrison”, all these equal and even with a tip towards these other schools. Who wouldn’t? Unless… there are factors. And, trust me, there are often very important factors that would change the picture considerably.
One of my kids got a nice award and acceptance to a program that turns out very successful and happy students from a school that doesn’t rate high on financial strength charts. Yes, I encouraged him and others to apply there for very good reasons. For many young people , it is the optimal choice.
Some of these schools that are having financial issues have gems of programs, opportunities, teachers in them that can elevate some students far more than Flagship U, Directional U, Private College possibly can.
The problem with spotlighting a school negatively, that is having problems on a forum like this is it causes harm to the school. I have No issues with bringing up facts that a school is having issues, financial problems and directing people to resources that refer to these things and rate them. Those are facts to that should be revealed. But denigrating then with negativity that are opinions is a whole other story, IMHO. It’s an ill wind that blows no good, and that’s the feeling I get when one focuses totally on the issues that a school might have.
@cptofthehouse “The problem with spotlighting a school negatively, that is having problems on a forum like this is it causes harm to the school”
Thanks for sharing your posting philosophy. While we disagree in that I believe a forthright and specific discussion can help avoid heartbreak later (and that CC is first and foremost an informational site for prospective students) I value your opinion.
Personally I believe that creating awareness by highlighting and discussing primary source material about a school’s financial challenges yields a much greater benefit to parents than the ubiquitous uninformed chance me post. Again just my view but thankfully the terms of use allow us both to exist as long as we are mutually respectful. Consistent with that I would respectfully ask that people stop questioning my motivations as that is expressly prohibited by the sites terms as are PMs threatening to “shut me down”.
That’s a pretty broad brush. Any school that carries debt is going to suffer a ratings downgrade at some point in its institutional life. And, every non-profit college and university, at best, is making ends meet by passing the hat at the end of the fiscal year, the very definition of deficit spending. I think we have to face the reality that a big part of the backbone of our American higher educational system are hundreds of small, private, mostly religious-affilliated, colleges that operate on the brink of solvency.
They’re an endangered species, just like bookstores.
IMHO, if someone wants to refer to an article calling attention to a specific situation at a particular college, that’s fine. But, engaging in a campaign against the same college, harping on the same issue is a different matter and smacks of a hidden agenda.
@circuitrider “IMHO, if someone wants to refer to an article calling attention to a specific situation at a particular college, that’s fine. But, engaging in a campaign against the same college, harping on the same issue is a different matter and smacks of a hidden agenda.”
I believe debating and questioning a persons motivations are both violations so I will refrain from responding. In addition that is not the subject matter of this thread yet you keep Trying to return the conversation to that about a specific school that we have been warned to avoid.
No, I was responding to this:
@cptofthehouse “The problem with spotlighting a school negatively, that is having problems on a forum like this is it causes harm to the school”
But if the news about a specific school is already out there and this news has already established facts on the ground, I think that a discussion about the details in the news and how much weight people should put on this disclosed facts is important. What is specially important is to discuss if the financial situation they are in will require immediate remediation - because that is what will affect the lives of current and incoming students.
In this case, a school is not so different from a business or a government. IF the financials show risk, the customer or citizen owes it to himself to consider if these risks will translate into downgraded or cessation of service.
In a school’s case, I would compare their financials vs how ambitious their current operational plans are. If they dont match or dont make sense, I would run away from it like a falling dotcom stock in 2001 or a thirdworld dictator during a coup de etat
I wouldn’t send my kids to schools with financial issues and that’s why CA public schools were off the list when my kids were looking. As fine as school Berkeley is, because of CA’s budget issue Berkeley was facing a lot of cut on their fundings. For almost the same price, my kid would be better off at Cornell, NU or Duke, with fundings for research, labs, facilities (libraries open 24-7), and enough money to hire the best professors.
Would you do business with companies with financial risk? If not, why would you send your kid to a school with financial issues - how do you think they are going to pay for their teachers, administrative staff and facilities.
Another vote for being very cautious about schools with financial challenges. You might consider one or two in your total application picture and decide down the road when you have acceptances and FA offers.
I want to make it clear that I do believe that information about schools and businesses should be researched, and the problems and financial aspects should be part of the picture.
But I don’t agree that an Auto Game Over way of dealing with the same is necessarily the best. There are very good reasons such schools and businesses should be considered. A knee jerk, crossing such schools off the list, does not allow consideration of these things. And so it is with any reactions that do not include consideration of the whole picture, whether it’s a company, college, or a person.
@cptofthehouse "I don’t agree that an Auto Game Over way of dealing with the same is necessarily the best. "
I would absolutely agree that a school (or investable company) shouldn’t be ruled out without proper analysis. Finances are fluid and in most cases easily understood in the context of past, current and future.
I would however discard any school (or company) where the past is troublesome, the current is unsustainable and the future (beyond inevitable change) is not defined.
I think it is incumbent upon school’s (and or businesses) to define and communicate their strategy when financially challenged. In reality this is sometimes not feasible as administrations, management and or leadership changes. While perhaps understandable and unavoidable I would no more send my kid into such an uncertain future or invest in a company in the absence of clarity.
I hold that view regardless of the experience as relayed by current attendees or share holders of a company. In fact I find these constituencies the least credible as they have an emotional and financial attachment that comes at the expense of unbiased analysis.
It’s important to understand what the impact of a school’s financials mean. Has an alarm been sounded because failure to take action now will turn into dire situation in 20 years? Most schools operate at a deficit and rely on endowment to balance the budget. For schools with big endowments, this isn’t newsworthy at all. If a school is drawing down its endowment, that presents different challenges. How does that school energize alumni giving without being alarmist? (Often, alumni think their schools are doing just fine and that their charity will be more useful elsewhere. ) some schools are much more transparent than others as well.
As with anything, you will need to work at being informed to not only get the story, but understand it. And if transparency has created a negative fervor, getting the full story from now gun-shy administration - especially about plans - may be tough.
At one school that we toured in NY, our guide said the one thing she’d change about the school was its endowment. Noted. But we fully supported our kid’s interest in a school that has gotten a lot of discussion here on CC, and although it wasn’t his choice, the kids we know who are there have been very satisfied with their experience.
A school’s financial health is a factor we considered, yes. Some public Us were out on that basis.
I agree that publics have a different kind of budget worry. If a huge percentage of the operating funds can be withdrawn on short notice, that’s a vulnerability.