<p>“gradually came to terms with the reality that he was going to be pretty average there. Just that experience, I think, is what made going to Harvard invaluable.”</p>
<p>Amen. </p>
<p>“I’m wondering why the model isn’t more widespread.”</p>
<p>It’s incredibly expensive. Even assuming enough space on campus to house all the undergrads, it costs a fortune to build and run a separate dining hall, library, etc. for every 400 students. Then you need to factor in about 10% more housing for the grad students who serve as tutors. Then, in order to get a senior member of the tenured faculty to spend tons of time running the house, you need to provide a big fancy house for his/her family. None of it works properly unless all of these things are in one complex or at least next door to each other. It’s so much cheaper and more efficient to build big dorms wherever a spot of land is free, and design each dining hall to accommodate 1000+ students.</p>
<p>Also, at schools where off-campus apartments are cheap and luxurious, or there’s a long history of upperclassmen going Greek/some other tradition, it’s very hard to impose radical change. Those alternative systems gain their own inertia. Princeton’s administration has wanted to have 4-year RCs since 1906. Then and now, they’re one of the few schools that could afford to do it right. But the eating clubs fought it, and the 2-year RCs were instituted as a compromise in 1982.</p>
<p>From a statistical standpoint, is that really true? Is there really an appreciable difference in suicide rates between elite schools / Ivies in particular and “average” college students? Just asking, since I’ve never seen any data one way or the other to quantify rates.</p>
<p>It is not true – it’s a widely repeated myth. Suicide risk for the college-age population in general is considerable. The highly selective schools have about the number of suicides you’d expect given their demographics, or even fewer.</p>
<p>Bovertine, you’re probably going to get me in trouble for posting this one – it’s a tad raunchy. I honestly think it’s pretty funny. Harvard and Yale trade “taunt” videos every year around the football game:</p>
<p>[Yale:</a> The ■■■■■■■■ (Trailer) - YouTube](<a href=“- YouTube”>- YouTube)</p>
<p>SEWHAPPY…since we’re posting videos, I liked last years ON Harvard Time video poking fun at Yale… [Why</a> Did I Choose Yale? - YouTube](<a href=“Why Did I Choose Yale? - YouTube”>Why Did I Choose Yale? - YouTube)
But you have to watch the real Yale admissions video on which the spoof is based FIRST in order to get the jokes. It can be seen at [That's</a> Why I Chose Yale - YouTube](<a href=“That's Why I Chose Yale - YouTube”>That's Why I Chose Yale - YouTube) . The Yalie in this real Yale video looks too much like President Obama.</p>
<p>I wish the ability to create videos such as this existed when I was in college (back in the 70’s at Boston College) it looks like a ton of fun.</p>
<p>Hanna…regarding your push back above to my suicide comment… “Ivies tolerate an unfortunately high suicide rate”…I wasn’t trying to say that Ivies have a higher suicide rate than other schools or the population in general…I was trying to say that it feels like it is tolerated/accepted as something that “just happens” in that environment.
Don’t get me wrong, the adminsistration works as hard as every other school to prevent it. There is certainly no condoning of it but people don’t acted as shocked as you’d expect. A kid who my son knew took his life six weeks before graduation and people talked about it as if “oh, he must have been having a hard time with his senior thesis”. Very, very sad.</p>
<p>How can you tell that students at Ivies / elite colleges are “less saddened or shocked” by a classmate’s suicide than students at “average” colleges? How is that measured? People are people – there’s no reason to believe that the Harvard student body is any different from the U of Average student body when it comes to feeling sympathy for a classmate’s sudden death or other terrible circumstance. I have the feeling that you’re projecting something here.</p>
<p>When I first joined CC the mega thread in the Parents Forum was about parents whose daughter committed suicide, suing MIT because the institution failed to recognize and treat their daughters mental illness. The law suit claimed MIT has/had a higher than average student suicide rate.</p>
<p>Going back to the title of the thread…a degree from HYP and perhaps Columbia might open doors a lot easier than other schools; however, I don’t feel the other ivies will avail any more opportunity than any other highly selective/highly ranked national university or LAC. Just my two cents. Like others have said, I also feel the region if the US where you live makes a difference in people’s perceptions as well as additional opportunities you might receive.</p>
<p>I sometimes wonder whether some of the responses on this subject come from people with experience, or just voicing a personal opinion. Let me tell you something: I graduated from a strong public university for undergrad, attended a strong public university for graduate school, and attended an ivy for a second graduate program. I won’t compare undergrad to grad, but I can comment on my experiences from graduate education: the material was similar, but the viewpoints were different. My public school grad degree was mid-level manager focussed; my ivy degree expected executive focus. I will also comment on branding. If anyone tells you that it is not worth going to an ivy school, they are insane. The doors that having an ivy on my resume have opened made the degree worth every penny. Sure, you can get equal education elsewhere for less, but you will not get the same portability, or prestige of an ivy. Is it warranted? Who cares? As long as employers continue to be impressed with pedigree, the ivy brand will be worth it. You can point to all the examples of people going to non-ivy schools and becoming CEO that you want. I totally agree – the person matters more than the degree. However, ivy degrees will help you get a foot into jobs that may not be available to non-ivy graduates. As someone who has attended both a non-ivy and an ivy, and who has experienced the different treatment of my resume based on brand name, the ivy degree is worth it.</p>
<p>You’re absolutely right Pizzagirl – and I mean that sincerely. “Employers” are not a grand monolith with uniform perceptions. AT&T may not care whether your MBA is from Penn or from UW Madison, but BCG, Goldmann, McKinsey, and various other prestige seeking firms do. xyc LLP law firm may not care if you received your JD from Yale or UT Austin, but Dechert LLP and other big law firms do. We can go back and forth – some places don’t care, others do. However, the ones that do care generally pay very well and are competitive. This is where the brand of the degree can make or break you. Period.</p>
<p>I think personality plays a large role in whether an Ivy League school is a significantly better choice. The caliber of talent in the honors program of a major state flagship can offer just as much opportunity, but you need to be an outgoing sort to aggressively pursue opportunities, especially when they occur outside your major/college.</p>
<p>I also suspect that an Ivy League degree makes it easier for a quiet kid who doesn’t much like to toot his own horn to find an exceptional job, due to the initial presumption of talent and drive. It can be easier to remain low-key if you’ve already run the under 10% accepted gauntlet once and your potential employer knows it.</p>
<p>I understand fully that most of you don’t live where I live, so this is difficult to understand. But the undergraduate Ivies as a whole have virtually no sway at all in hiring around here. And the reason for that is simple: they have no track record. A few students do indeed go away to the Ivies, and they are always good to very good students (though H. seems to like our athletes), but the reality is that they never return. So they have virtually no track record, very small alumni networks (this is not true for the law schools or med schools, but we are talking undergraduate here), and they rarely bring back anything in the way of special skills (an exception might be Wharton for finance or accounting). The overwhelming majority of employers certainly couldn’t tell you what states Brown or Dartmouth are in (and I expect the majority couldn’t even pronounce the latter.) Cornell may be larger than Grinnell, but Grinnell is closer and so we have more applicants, and then there is Cornell College… In my office, when I’m on a hiring committee and see an Ivy applicant (which I have), the first question in my mind is why do they want to move back here? (Often it’s a marriage, or an ageing parent or something like that.) </p>
<p>Yes, it is rumored to us that Ivy students are generally speaking smart. We think we know that mostly because they rejected lots of our smart high schoolers (they gain more in reputation from rejecting them than in accepting them.) But that’s about it. The next question is always (as it is everywhere) what can you do for me that the other applicant can’t. </p>
<p>If you want a good job here, get a degree from BYU (and every year, we have a few students turn down H and Y for it.)</p>
<p>Employers" are not a grand monolith with uniform perceptions. AT&T may not care whether your MBA is from Penn or from UW Madison, but BCG, Goldmann, McKinsey, and various other prestige seeking firms do. xyc LLP law firm may not care if you received your JD from Yale or UT Austin, but Dechert LLP and other big law firms do. We can go back and forth – some places don’t care, others do. However, the ones that do care generally pay very well and are competitive. This is where the brand of the degree can make or break"</p>
<p>Employers are not monolithic either by region or by sector. </p>
<p>The finance sector gets a lot of attention on College Confidential. This is one sector where employers seem to highly value where you went to college. For law and med school admissions, what really matters is your college GPA and entrance exam scores. In IT hiring, what really matters is what you know and can do. Microsoft for example has its own robust aptitude-screening process; an Ivy name on your resume won’t help you get through it. In federal government hiring, an Ivy diploma is unlikely to help you at all. Defense/intelligence agencies, and the foreign service, have their own aptitude-screening and security clearance processes; again, an Ivy diploma won’t help you get through. I can’t imagine that big engineering and architectural design firms will be very moved by an Ivy diploma, either.</p>
<p>If you think you have what it takes to found the next Facebook or Google, then yes, the social network at Harvard or Stanford might give you a significant edge in connecting up with other smart movers and shakers. If you aren’t that kind of self-starter … if you just want to find your place in a major existing national/international firm or agency … then I think it is easy to over-estimate the role of “connections” in national & global (versus local/regional) hiring.</p>
<p>The Ivies may offer “more” but the difference isn’t necessarily in your career prospects. “Elite” national universities and LACs draw smart, interesting students from all over the USA and the world who share academic and personal interests in a relatively intimate, well-resourced environment ($$$ for facilities, concerts, speakers, etc.) This is a different formative experience than (at the other extreme) 4 years of beer pong. Not that you can’t find elements of either experience (across a fairly wide price range) at virtually any top ~100 school, but they aren’t there in equal concentrations or equally accessible at all of them.</p>