Does artsy son need 4 years of HS math & foreign language

<p>Wesleyan, Brown and Vassar will more easily forgive one omission if your artsy son is otherwise a top performer. That includes his grades and scores, the rigor of his classes. He should have ECs that reflect school, personal and community interests or efforts- and leadership roles or responsibility. Admissions is so competitive that kids are advised to manage as much of the traditional, expected classes as possible. Sure, they are encouraged to pursue other interests as well. But not at the expense of the core “solids.”</p>

<p>One tricky aspect is how strong other applicants in your broad region are. If all the other top kids take the rigorous path through hs, that’s where the bar is set. Good luck.</p>

<p>ps. Never heard of pre-calc serving as a 4th year of math when it is taken junior year. Having calc or AP calc in junior year is a slightly different case because it is traditonally a senior course.</p>

<p>For schools like Brown, Vassar and Wesleyan – while they may say they require three years and prefer four, it’s pretty tough to get accepted without the four years. These schools (especially Brown) have many more applicants than spots, and can be very very picky. </p>

<p>However, every year they accept kids who are outliers – who didn’t take calculus, who scored below 2000 on the SAT, etc. </p>

<p>Your son could take four years of math and four years of language and still NOT get into his reach schools. These schools reject valedictorians with 2350 SATs and multiple APs. OTOH, he could skip math and get accepted. You just don’t know. I think you both have to ask yourselves which is better/worse: being miserable senior year and taking another year of math and still not getting into those reach schools, or taking whatever he wants and not getting into the reach schools. </p>

<p>And ask the guidance counselor what he needs to take to get her to check off the “most rigorous curriculum” box on the application.</p>

<p>Don’t forget to check the graduation requirements of each college or university, as well as the admission requirements.</p>

<p>If, for example, calculus is not required for admission but is required for graduation (or is a prerequisite for other courses required for graduation), then fulfilling it in high school opens up more schedule space at the college or university to take other interesting courses.</p>

<p>Note that social studies majors are commonly required to take statistics; in some cases (particularly for economics and business majors), the statistics course has to be calculus based (which AP statistics is not). If that is a possibility, AP calculus is likely to be more useful than AP statistics.</p>

<p>D is struggling with this question as well. She wants to take a history course senior year, and has a mandatory philosophy/religion requirement to fulfill. So at the moment Spanish (she is in 4 as a junior) and science (she will have completed Bio, Chem and AP Physics) are on the potential chopping block. Although she is not a math kid she wants to do AP AB Calc in the hpes she can place out of any college math requirement.</p>

<p>Well…let me weigh in on this as the mother of an extremely artsy son now in his first year foundation in a top 10 art program. TAKE THE MATH! Unless he has real issues with math, AB calc is far more interesting than any math up to this point and far more useful. </p>

<p>What are the benefits:

  1. no worries about requirements–some schools do require 4 years of math.
  2. I truly believe that a basic understanding of calculus is essential for any well educated person; it actually is not as taxing on the brain as a lot of the advanced trig but is very applicable to the world around us.
  3. may place out of some math at college
  4. LAST AND VERY IMPORTANT…most “artsy” kids are also pretty good spacially and “see” math so they don’t always enjoy the analytical solutions to a problem but prefer to solve it spacially. A good calc class will suddenly make math relevant and fun for the artsy kids. </p>

<p>My son wasn’t anti math but was a B student because he was bored doing homework. I wanted him to do the AB calc (11th grade) to get the fourth year of math (did algebra in middle school). He came home after one week and said…now I am having fun in math and he loved it so much he took BC calc as a senior. He placed out of two semesters of math at a top liberal arts school which allows him to go straight into some computer classes he wants to pursue along with his art. </p>

<p>I really hate that people think that math and art are incompatible…if you are artsy you cant enjoy or benefit from higher math. I think it is quite the opposite. Why not have your art student talk to the teacher and other kids. The critical feature is a motivated and creative math teacher…if the teacher is lousy he should just take the stats.</p>

<p>Here’s an example from the University of California system:
"UC-approved high school courses</p>

<p>Three years (four years recommended) of college-preparatory mathematics that include the topics covered in elementary and advanced algebra and two- and three-dimensional geometry. Approved integrated math courses may be used to fulfill part or all of this requirement, as may math courses taken in the seventh and eighth grades if the high school accepts them as equivalent to its own courses."</p>

<p>My sons took Algebra 1 in 7th grade, Geometry in 8th, Algebra 2 in 9th (at that point they met the UC system requirement) and Pre Calc in 10th (and, at that point they met the recommendation of four years college prep math). They both went on to take more math, but they dropped the foreign language after 3 years. </p>

<p>It’s a tough call, but I agree with fineartsmajormom; if your school doesn’t have a good calculus teacher, it’s not worth it. But, I’d differ and suggest Italian over the AP Stats. AP Stats is algebra based and he’s already shown completion of that area of math, so if he’s not interested in the subject, he might as well take Italian.</p>

<p>Why must the fourth year of math be an AP at all? Is there a decent consumer math course at your kid’s high school? In his life outside of college he will need to be able to balance a bank account, file a tax return, read a credit card statement, and understand a mortgage - all topics covered in the consumer math class Happykid took senior year.</p>

<p>mathmom stated:

</p>

<p>As I said the OP should check the required and suggested requirements for high school prep. This is simply our experience, however UVa recommends five years of a foreign language. I am certain that plenty of outstanding students are admitted with less then five years of foreign language. We simply used the ‘suggested high school prep’ as a guideline as opposed to the ‘required’. This is purely a personal decision and depends entirely on the schools you are applying to, that’s why I suggested checking. I also know that very high achieving students are admitted to the most selective schools every year without five years of foreign language. If you have certain target schools it is a good idea to see what they are looking for. If your student plans to do something else, a call to admissions to ask how the proposed schedule would be viewed is certainly worth your time and effort.</p>

<p>My post wasn’t intended to insinuate that anyone without five years of foreign language or four years of math would not be successful in admissions at any school (top tier or otherwise), it was to point out that there are schools that have suggested requirements higher then others and it’s worth it to check. It is worth noting that some schools want core classes all four years of high school. This indicates any classes taken in middles school would not exempt a student in their Sr. year. It’s worth a call to ask so you can help your student make an informed decision. Nothing more, nothing less.</p>

<p>I’m interested in this conversation and will keep tuning in - DS is in AP Calc AB as a junior. He’s an anomaly, though (I think there’s one other junior with him) - the really top math kids are in AP Calc BC as juniors, and will go on as seniors to take multivariate calculus, differential equations, etc. I’m afraid that group will eat his lunch (and his GPA) next year! (he’s reasonably good at math, but they’re in a whole other universe…) The alternative is statistics, which he is really not excited about.</p>

<p>happymomof1 - if he’s going for the super-selectives (and some on his list are), I would wonder how a consumer-type math course would be viewed. I actually do think that the type of course you suggest (nothing like it at our hs) might be a valuable addition to all public school educations - since so many people are financially naive/ignorant. But I’m not sure how it would be perceived by Admissions officers.</p>

<p>Speaking as a parent, not a mod, directly replying only to OP’s question and nobody in between.</p>

<p>Our family’s answers won’t work for everyone. I have 3 smart-and-artsy kids, two of whom became Math-phobes in Middle School and never recovered during h.s. Only one is an all-around student in all subjects. All 3 are strong in the performing arts today professionally. Our household is very non-math, unfortunately. </p>

<p>Here are their h.s. and college application strategies they used at various times to address Math: </p>

<ol>
<li><p>All 3 took one extra course, instead of lunch period, to solve varous schedule conflicts throughout h.s. They ate bag lunches in class. They had to initiate this, by asking the GC. Since they’re all sociable it didn’t harm them to miss daily cafeteria contact. They have to be able to handle all the homework and get good grades; no excuses. Perhaps OP’s son would rather take an extra class this way, rather than drop a social science or humanities he’s looking forward to taking. It means extra work and less social life during h.s. hours.</p></li>
<li><p>One took Summer School math, by choice, to clear his calendar for some other humanities classes he wanted instead during the upcoming regular school year. As it turned out, Math went better for him in summertime because it wasn’t jammed in around 6 other courses. As his only homework, he had time to think about it more and began to like it just a tiny bit. It went well with lemonade. He got a B and felt he might have gotten a C had it been taken during the usual schoolyear squeeze. Of issue was that others in the summer class were highly competitive lovers of Math, taking Summer School to get ahead and waive a class. S met with the teacher to explain what he was doing there, and that he wasn’t being difficult when he asked some basic questions. The teacher let him ask questions after class to not slow the class down, which can be irritating to other swift-boats.</p></li>
<li><p>The one who did take Calc senior year experienced the oft-repeated phrase that “pre-Calc is harder than Calc.” Although he encountered the limits of his intellectual range right there, he came to like Math as part of his coursework. He voluntarily enrolled in college math at an open curriculum college, saying he’d “miss Math” otherwise. It had become part of his thinking life. Today he’s a working actor off-Broadway. His across-the-boards comfort with all subjects is a real advantage. The younger two, who stopped all maths after junior year, have always been stuck in the belief that math is “not for them.” As young adults, it’s a sore point and occasional embarassment to them, much like the technical whiz who struggles to write. It just reduces their intellectual range and they feel it sometimes. </p></li>
<li><p>The one who had the worst struggle with Math searched hard for an LAC that had a different approach to college math requirements. Rather than the usual Math 101 for freshmen, that college had a “Quantitative Points” system. She ended up taking 3 college courses that were “math-y” from other departments, plus a Computer Science course that qualified. In that school, the Math department devotes itself more to people who love and want to proceed with Math, but has a system for other types of students as well. She also laid it all out in her college application essay. She had never made better than a B in math, ever, during h.s. but by seeking a good fit in college, got exposure to courses that included: Musical Acoustics and Architecture from other departments. This fit more into her artsy ways, and gave her more Math thinking than taking Freshman Math 101. It’s hard to find LAC’s that do that, but look hard and you may find programs that provide better “fit” for your artsy child not inspired by regular math. It’s also important to have something very strong to show on the other side of the balance sheet, in terms of not just “artsiness” but real strength and achievement in humanities. Otherwise it all sounds like an excuse. I’m thinking about OP’s concern not to limit the college application phase. Your student might be what colleges call a “gappy” student, but if the Math is very weak, the other areas should be very strong to balance it out as a good application. In that way, an artsy student can be competitive with an all-around, but the arts have to really be there. </p></li>
<li><p>I WISH they could have taken Consumer Math, even as an addition to their regular programs. The life skills there are important.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>OP’s concern focused on Wesleyan, Brown, Vassar. My note- and FiireandRain’s- makes the point that these are schools with hefty competition. </p>

<p>Adcoms review the transcript to see what was taken when. If a kid took calc or AP calc in junior year, they may feel he satisfied the need to move all the way through the typical advanced math classes. Likewise, if a kid took a high enough level of language before sr year, they may be satisfied. In some cases, the applicant will have taken a SAT2 or AP test that backs up that he’s gained enough skill in that language (whether or not he took AP classes in the language.)</p>

<p>Adcoms will also know which high schools have odd schedules or requirements that sometimes leave a kid with a last-minute choice between the final year of language and a higher-level math class. If all the other ducks are lined up, that can be fine.</p>

<p>But, what about the kid who may have taken more hs electives and now faces this final choice for his senior year? Or, the kid who wants 2 AP social studies-related classes and has to choose between math and language? I hope the GC can give OP’s son some relevant advice based on his own record and strength as an applicant to these 3 colleges. There are no simple answers. Adcoms take so many factors into account.</p>

<p>How does OP’s kid know that he’s not going to develop a latent interest in architecture or urban planning or game design or art conservation? All areas which will require a quant class or 2 or 3 for which adequate math prep will be a sticking point.</p>

<p>One of the reasons why colleges list the subjects they consider to be solid prep is just because these are the accepted pre-req’s of a solid educational core regardless of what a kid ends up studying.</p>

<p>Stats is a fine senior year alternative to Calc. If it were my kid, I would not take the risk that the 12 minutes the committee is going to spend talking about me is consumed by a discussion of why no math senior year. Better they talk about my sense of humor or what my teacher’s say about me- and not focus on did he/didn’t he/why not.</p>

<p>Give them lots of reasons to accept me, not one obvious reason to reject me, that’s my logic. Of course you can get into these schools with less than the recommended prep. But for a kid who is a decent math student, why risk it?</p>

<p>Yes. Your very bright and artsy son needs four years of math and foreign language.</p>

<p>Hi everybody. You all make REALLY good points. Today his counselor and math teacher encouraged him to take AP Calc. He is thinking about it.</p>

<p>I am concerned about overloading him during his senior year. He does several intense time-consuming extra-curriculars, and when you add in doing college applications…I don’t know. </p>

<p>He is capable of doing the calc…He is capable of doing the 4th year of Italian. I just don’t want those to become a tipping point that overloads him. Of course, I don’t want to give a school an excuse not to accept him either.</p>

<p>I have to go but will be back late tonight. Thanks again!</p>

<p>And for those that suggested summer courses… a lot of his summer is booked, but I will check around. That would be an ideal solution.</p>

<p>I only took 3 years of Latin and took AP environmental (the fake science) and I got into Swarthmore (RD).</p>

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<p>Why does he have to take AP anything? Why not just plain old math…you know…the regular math courses. Especially since he doesn’t really want to take math at all…why is AP a consideration?</p>

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<p>This is funny. :slight_smile: The only concern you would have, and I’m sure you researched, is meeting the required number of ‘lab’ sciences, and that your sciences covered the number of areas required. For instance, some schools want four years of science, three must be lab sciences, and they must be in three different areas. Biology, chemistry, physics, and a science elective of your choice fit the bill. Every school is different. This is simply an example.</p>

<p>One of my children was terrible in math & could not imagine even continuing into Algebra II and ended up with 3 Math credits, one of which was for students who were not proficient in math, I believe the high school called it “Applied Math” or “Senior Math”. </p>

<p>We kept explaining to our applicant that by not doing the Algebra I, Algebra II, Geometry, etc. sequence, they would be prevented from applying to some schools. Child was even tested to see about a math learning disability, but no Math LD. The Math SAT scores were not very outstanding!</p>

<p>[Alfred</a> University : Academics](<a href=“http://www.alfred.edu/academics/]Alfred”>Academics | Alfred University) </p>

<p>Child is very happy at above school, Alfred University (NY) where I believe AU only requires two math credits. However, child will have to take a math course at AU because the SAT Math score was not high enough. It is evidently a math course offered to students who are not proficient in math. </p>

<p>It is possible to find a university/college for students who struggle with math, and a highly ranked one at that. You really have to do your research! </p>

<p>2200 Undergrads, small classes, Division III Athletics, need-based aid, merit aid, No Greek Life, established in 1836, Alfred University is a true hidden gem with School of Engineering, School of Business, College of Liberal Arts, School of Art & Design. </p>

<p>USNWR’s Great Schools Great Prices
Fiske Guide 2011
Princeton Review’s Best 373
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USNWR’s Best Regional Universities</p>