Does artsy son need 4 years of HS math & foreign language

Parents Forum
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<p>At some point, I think, the student has to figure out what is truly do-able for the him/her, what is not, and then be able to accept the consequences of that. My S decided, after multiple switches on who was teaching Latin in his HS, and by junior year being with a teacher he found utterly disastrous and mean-spirited (this is a kid whom teachers ordinarily loved, and he had no problems with any others), he dropped language for senior year. We discussed the ramifications. The selective colleges he looked at recommended but did not require 4 years of language, but we knew, as has been discussed above, that not having the 4 would be a disadvantage. he decided he’d have to take the risk, as in his mind continuing was not an option (most of his class made the same decision, btw.)</p>

<p>The upshot was he was accepted into the two schools he applied to, a very competitive OOS U and an Ivy ED. He was prepared to apply elsewhere if he hadn’t, and knew he could attend the instate flagship, and so he made his choices accordingly.</p>

<p>I’m not recommending this strategy, but rather saying that sometimes it comes down to–“this is what’s doable for me, so I’ll have to work with whatever results it leads to.”</p>

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<p>I think a lot of this depends of what your school offers, but I certainly wouldn’t worry about only meeting all the requirements of a college and a few of the recommendations, rather than all the recommendations, especially if that allows your child to pursue things that interest him/her and to write about those things clearly and passionately on an application.</p>

<p>Our school only has 6 periods. Total. Summer school only for failing students who need to repeat a class to get credit. So, 6 X 4 = 24. Minus 2 for PE if you aren’t an athlete, 4 for PE if you are because all teams require enrollment in PE. Minus 4 if you are in band, choir, journalism, or theater because all these require registration in a class to participate. It is impossible to fit in 4 years of language arts, social studies, math, science, foreign language, so students who can’t get to calc by junior year typically only have 3 years of either science, social science or foreign language. Everyone juggles it differently and a handful get into elite schools.</p>

<p>I think the student who focused on humanities and only had bio, chem, and APES for science and ended math with trig (follows algebra II but not as demanding as pre-calc) put herself at a disadvantage, but she is enjoying Davidson. My D ended up with only 2 yrs of foreign language, but was accepted into several elite tech schools. I think it hurt her with the LACs she applied to, but then so did being a girl.</p>

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S is a senior this year. After taking honors Geometry, honors algebra/trig, and honors pre-calc, he is in AP Calculus AB (only one offered). He actually LIKES math, although it is not his major interest. He has done fairly well in his previous courses. He is struggling mightily with Calculus. Partly senioritus, partly EC/application overload, partly difficult/rigorous teacher, who knows? His only saving grace is the 98 he got on the mid-term exam. </p>

<p>I would suggest asking around as to how other students do in this course.</p>

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<p>Does artsy son need 4 years of HS math & foreign language?</p>

<p>For the vast majority of artsy colleges he might consider… no.</p>

<p>For Brown, Vassar, Wesleyan… yes.</p>

<p>Your & your son really need to seriously take stock of college goals and decide whether the end goal is fit or prestige. If it’s fit, then he can take things down a notch, focus on all those small liberal arts schools, and enjoy senior year. But if he seriously wants to be competitive for the mega-selective colleges, then he’s handicapping himself by skipping a course that other kids will have.</p>

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<p>Would “consumer math” take up a course by itself, or could it easily be fit into some other type of “life skills” course that included other subjects?</p>

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<p>Probably because he has already taken all of the math courses leading up to calculus, so the next course in the sequence is calculus, which is generally offered as an AP course since calculus is generally seen as a “college or university level” math course.</p>

<p>In other words, there are no more “regular math courses” to take, so it is either the AP courses or no math.</p>

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<p>You can teach that class by having them observe and take part when you do the household budget, go shopping, clipping coupons, finding other savings/freebies, conversations/discussions about ads on TV and other places, etc. </p>

<p>Mom and I used to do this from the time I was 6 and this was reinforced by an aunt who had me go on shopping trips with her to find best deals. Got some further practice haggling for various items in Mainland China and later on, CL. All that really helped in college and post-college life.</p>

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<p>Even in my girls tiny school, they offered AP calc and calc. Yes, I agree consumer math is important, but there is currently no standardization. And, no matter its practical value, it cannot replace a traditional core math- in terms of the admissions process.</p>

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<p>BTW, as an arty type, statistics is a wonderful class. What I mean to say is that statistics produces visuals brilliantly.</p>

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<p>My D was in this exact same situation last year. After much careful thought, she chose her senior schedule just before we left on a spring-break college tour. At Vassar, they made it clear that while a 4th year of math and 4th year of language were not required, they were strongly advised, and chances of admission dropped considerably without them.</p>

<p>This gave my D an immediate stomachache. With our blessing, she was following her passions senior year-- and colleges say they want to see evidence of passion! She loves Spanish and did very well in it (on the honors level) and fully intends to continue in college, but the teacher is poor for AP Spanish and Spanish IV. And her junior year math (also on an honors level) was excruciating. We were happy to see her lit up with love for history, psychology, literature and government, and have no regrets in not mandating that she take 4th year language and math.</p>

<p>She decided not to apply to Vassar and Wesleyan for these reasons. She applied to a half-dozen liberal arts colleges that are all very fine, if a notch “lower” than those stars, and so far she’s been accepted to three with generous merit aid. She realized that while very bright and an achiever, she wasn’t the right fit for those A-list schools-- she would rather be at a school where she can pursue her passions.</p>

<p>So no regrets on her part or ours.</p>

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<p>OP, you mention that your S is occupied with a couple of very time-intensive ECs and has a busy summer schedule as well. I wonder if he’s doing artsy things that can be quantified (honors, awards, prestige selective programs) or output (wrote a novel, a musical, painted a mural for your town)? For those artsy and highly achieving kids, one might find top colleges are willing to take a slightly less rigorous courseload to capture a true original achiever.</p>

<p>If he truly hates the idea of senior year with math and language, and is willing to take this added risk (after all, admissions to V,W, & B are high risk for all) this choice is an option. (my S1 got accepted to Vassar w/o 4 years FL or 4 years math–but with 5 APs senior year). And you’d have to weigh the downside to having him take classes he hates and may bring down his GPA in the balance.</p>

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<p>Wow, I am so grateful for all of the truly wonderful advice and replies. Honestly, I agree with ALL of you, and I truly see all sides of this.</p>

<p>He has requested his schedule, but will have to see how it works out when he learns what period different classes are offered. If courses conflict he may be forced to change it.</p>

<p>He has decided to continue with math by taking AP Stats. He is taking this as a kind of compromise, to continue with math, but without the stress we hear comes with calculus. Yes, this it is a risk admissions-wise, but it is OK with me. I want him to keep his sanity and his GPA during his senior year (hopefully?? :slight_smile: )</p>

<p>At this point he is dropping Italian to take the honors poli science seminar. This is just to follow his interest and real excitement about the poli science course. He wants to continue Italian, but the space just isn’t there in his schedule.</p>

<p>So, I think his schedule is still pretty rigorous for senior year-- am I completely wrong? (BTW, the bio is another genuine interest of his):
AP English
AP Gov
AP Bio
AP Stats
Honors Senior Seminar- Political Science
Band/Gym</p>

<p>Also-- it is his artsy extra-curriculars, especially the outside-of-school ones, that will hopefully make him unique in admissions.</p>

<p>Thanks again! I hope all the great advice on this thread was helpful to other people too.</p>

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<p>commasplice - No parent that goes to the extent to seek out information/opinions of parents who are in the process of admissions, or ‘BTDT’, for words of advice could ever be ‘wrong’! You take the collective information, decide how it applies to your student, what’s available to them, etc., and help them make an informed decision. I feel that’s really the most important thing…making an informed decision, not necessarily the decision you make. You don’t want to realize half way through their senior year that that your students dream school really does want that forth year of math and very few are competitive without it (even if three was the ‘required’). This way, as researching4 beautifully explains, there are no regrets. You can refocus on another dream school much earlier in the process if it is clear the school isn’t a good match.</p>

<p>Good luck to your student!</p>

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<p>Summarizing : I compared your OP with post #52, the changes in schedule I see are these: </p>

<p>He’s replacing the fourth year of Italian with a Math.
He chose between language v. math to maintain a very exciting PoliSci seminar.</p>

<p>For the Math, he chose AP Statistics, not Calculus. </p>

<p>All the other subjects, including the passion-topics in Social Sciences remain.</p>

<h2>His keen interest in the Arts, expressed in EC activities, provide the uniqueness of his application.</h2>

<p>I hope I got that correct. As a parent, to me, it sounds solid and will leave him more choices for college applications. He gave the foreign language a good run, and can pick it up again in college. Since it’s Italian, he could continue that language and move into Italian Literature, or branch out if he prefers to begin a new foreign language from scratch. </p>

<p>He might be aware to keep a sweet spot in his study schedule for the Statistics so the grade works out well for him. Even “artsy types” (I have 3 so I know) can be taught to develop staying power to do, with excellence, whatever doesn’t interest them. It will help them (fill in the blanks here, as appropriate to your S): memorize a script on director’s deadline to be “off-book”; properly prepare a canvas before painting it; notate a score before performing it…all the drudge work. To your S, doing well in Statistics, allowing time to master the homework, disregarding how interesting it is or isn’t, can come to represent something valuable to an artist, namely: muscling out the grunt work, keeping a work ethic for tedious tasks as well as inspirational moments. </p>

<p>Best wishes to your family.</p>

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<p>We had a couple of these path-deciding moments with S2, a history/social sciences guy in full IB. IB Physics SL or Honors Physics? IB SL Math Studies or IB SL Math? Philosophy or another year of Spanish (he had already done AP/IB SL)? AP Stat or AP Calc BC?</p>

<p>S2 knew he would not love physics and did not want other grades to suffer if he had a hard time with IB physics. He took Honors, though said the kids in the class were not as engaged as the IB or AP classes would have been.</p>

<p>SL Math Studies vs. SL Math – he would take the same courses for either exam, neither SL exam would be recognized by colleges for credit, decided not to drive himself nuts – took Math Studies.</p>

<p>AP Stat vs. Calc BC – he knew if he was going to have to take Calc in college, he’d be want to go back to square one no matter what, despite a 4 on Calc AB. Figured Stat would be more useful for his interests (social sciences) and would give him at least some familiarity when he took an entry-level stat course in college. Took AP Stat.</p>

<p>Philosophy vs. Spanish – knew he was going to switch languages in college. Phil turned out to be an amazing course – one of the top two he had in HS. One of the best decisions he made in HS.</p>

<p>In every case, he took the slightly easier route, but those choices were consistent with who he is. Look at his interests, look at his coursework, look at his essays – it painted a picture of someone who knew what he wanted and was not afraid of taking the less-traveled path. AP Calc BC and AP Physics would have been needless torture.</p>

<p>He got into his top two choices. Both my kids took the POV that senior year, the only class they HAD to pass was English, and that freed them to take courses in things that truly interested them. (S2 had IB, but even then, he was able to make it a fairly social sciences-intensive year.</p>

<p>ETA: As a parent, I was glad he took the less-intense route. Senior year IB, with the EE, TOK paper and college apps was horrendously stressful. Was not a happy experience dealing with a burned-out kid. Can’t imagine what would have happened with more intense course choices.</p>

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<p>I think there is a difference between applying to a school as someone “artsy” and applying to a school as an art/ music/ theatre major in a specific, talent-based program.</p>

<p>For some schools, there will be a more leeway academically if you are applying for a talent-based (audition/ portfolio) programs. </p>

<p>However, if your EC’s make you “artsy”, but you are applying for an academic program, I would assume that the expectations of the school will be the same for you as anyone else applying.</p>

<p>Across the board there are always people who get in without having the exact profile they present on their websites, but I don’t think the label of “artsy” will up your chances particularly.</p>

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<p>Interestingly, my son who ended up at the same school and major as CD’s son took a different route. Although he is not a math and science guy he’s always liked it and been interested in it. He’s usually done B+ work, though he loved his pre-calc teacher and got an A. He signed up for both AP Stats and AP Calc BC because of that math teacher. Sadly he couldn’t take Stats because of a conflict and a different teacher for BC meant he didn’t do as well as he had in pre-calc. I think he got some brownie points for taking the more challenging route. He also took AP Physics C. He did drop the foreign language. The next level of Latin was AP and he knew he would do poorly. He also chose to do an English elective instead of either honors or AP. He also took AP Euro. In the end he was rejected from the Ivies and Georgetown (schools I think he would have been rejected from even if he had taken AP English and AP Latin with the grades he would have gotten in them.) He got into U of Chicago, Tufts and Vassar with a challenging schedule, but certainly not the most challenging possible schedule. </p>

<p>I think sometimes you have to make choices that keep the student happy and sane. AP Euro was the one non-negotiable in our son’s schedule. He’d been looking forward to it for four years and it lived up to expectations. His schedule ended up being a little easier than expected and I thought his senior year could have benefited from a little more stress, but he did enjoy it and had plenty of time to really work on his application essays.</p>

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<p>S2 had AP Calc and AP Stat, AP/IB Bio and AP Environmental (and got 5s on all but Calc), so he felt like he’d “proved” whatever he needed to in those areas. If the full diploma IB plus an extra IB course and 11 APs wasn’t sufficient proof to a college of his willingness to bust his tail, then he did NOT want to be there!! :D</p>

<p>Mathmom, I think taking the BC Calc and Physics would not have made a difference for S2 in admissions at Georgetown or the Ivies he considered. I love my kid on the couch!</p>

<p>The two-year HL/AP Euro course was the main reason S2 picked the IB program – the teachers are truly superlative.</p>

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<p>Does Brown still require Calculus as a prerequisite for just about EVERYTHING? (even statistics)
It is a very theoretical school - and everything is derived in all classes. You would be surprised at how quantitative some classes are - such as psychology, sociology, etc…
If he finds that Calculus is a prerequisite for something he wants to take, and he takes college calculus, everyone else in the entire class will have taken calculus before. He will be at a major disadvantage.
Let’s say he is artsy - but wants a fallback in case he can’t find a job in the arts. His fallback classes might require calculus.
Or, he might discover an interest in college of which he is currently unaware. This might require calculus.
Just saying! Sounds like you have a great kid - good luck!</p>

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<p>My D is also an “artsy” kid who made these kinds of choices throughout HS. She doesn’t have quite the same stats - tended to get Bs in math and science until Junior year - but she does have a competitive ACT score. I always figured that she’d drop at least math or science as a senior, but she surprised me by taking AP Calc and Honors Chem (she took AP Bio as a junior). FL went in 10th grade - our Spanish teachers just didn’t click for her. It was important to her to have time for all of the music and art classes she wanted, because that is who she is.</p>

<p>She started her college list a little conservatively, with just matches and safeties, because of the lower grades in math/science. But after nailing that ACT last fall she decided to take a chance and see if some more selective schools might take her. We’ll see what happens - with her, it will be a case of sparking someone’s interest, filling a niche in the arts (or geographically), or merely proving that they aren’t just looking for every single item to be at the tippy-top. I guess she went with the “you can’t get in if you don’t apply” philosophy.</p>

<p>But she IS on an artsy path - the main focus for her is auditioned arts programs. She’s quite prepared for rejections, since they’re inevitable in that process. Maybe since she knew she’d get some from artistic reaches, she could handle some from academic reaches, too. But a surprising academic acceptance could really make up for a disappointing artistic outcome.</p>

<p>The bottom line is that she went with who she is. As long as she matches at least the second quartile of accepted students’ stats, we figure she has as good a chance as most kids of getting in. She didn’t give up anything - kept all of the arts classes she wanted - and she didn’t take academics that truly made her miserable (our Spanish classes, even though she loves FL in general and can’t wait to start again in college). She did make a thoughtful choice about math and science this year, and I think it will help her in the long run. </p>

<p>But that is yet to be seen. So far she has several acceptances, but not yet to any schools where she’s below the top quartile of stats.</p>