<p>You have to ask any college that question. The “meet full need” guarantee does not necessarily cover all students in many cases, so even when that is in the college’s fin aid policies, you do have to ask these questions. Transfers, waitlist, students who did not apply for aid first year, international students, non traditional programs are all categories of students that typically have no guarantee that they get their full need met even by the definition of a school that boasts this sort of thing. What ANY given school’s formula is for a second or third sibling or for that matter if there already is a sibling n the picture and he leaves school in future years, is up in the air. You gotta ask address the issue. There have been a few posts just this year where parents find their aid doesn’t increase with another kid going to college or increases just a smidgeon. </p>
<p>The only thing worse in terms of getting prices for various scenarios that I can think of, is trying to price shop hospitals .</p>
<p>Operating on little detail here. Give the amounts of loans in your post I was assuming these are loans above subsidized student loans. Most financial packages include expectations of student summer earning, work study while in school, and at most schools at least subsidized loans. Virtually no student on financial aid has no skin in the game. In addition, the number 1 reason poor kids drop out of college is lack of money … even if they are in a no loan situation they likely are in much worse financial situation than those in higher income brackets even with loans.</p>
<p>PS - ironically, the one situation that seems to be “skin in game free” are big merit awards (often earned by families well above full financial aid level) … although their GPA requirement is a version of skin in the game.</p>
<p>cptofthehouse…
Thank you so much for your genuine and detailed response. It really goes to the heart of why I am not going to simply draw a financial line in the sand and cross Cornell (or any other school) off of the list based on a website calculator. Who knows what the cost will truly end up being there, or anywhere else…who knows if he will even get accepted for that matter!
Daddio3…
CMU is one school I can skip the calculator on-doesn’t have a major my son is interested in. He actually spent the summer there and said he could never attend anyway–said the food was inedible, lol. He really liked the city of Pittsburg though, and he went to an information session and tour of Pitt one day. He said he could see himself attending there “if he had to”…sounds like a safety to me!!!</p>
<p>3togo…
Sorry, the information came from a link to Cornell from post #38
Playing around with the calculator for various scenarios, this is how it works:
Random Income under $60000 example-
Need $57000
Grants $54800
Campus Employment $2200
Random Income over $120000 example-
Need $13,000
Grant $3000
Loan $7500
Campus Employment $2500
Apparently not all “need” is created equal…</p>
<p>Proudmom, many schools have a no loan policy for low income students only. Students with a family income below a certain amount do not have loans in their packages, but students above the amount do. This is NOT unique to Cornell.</p>
<p>thumper1,
Yes, I know. Someone else brought up the topic and my original comment was that this is an aspect of FA that I just don’t get…not referring specifically to Cornell, but to the income based, no loan policy across the board.</p>
<p>keep in mind just because a school has a no loan policy for low income students, it does not necessarily mean that the low income student graduates debt free. Most schools have a minimum 3k student contribution that goes up each year. If the student does not make the student contribution, the school does not give extra monies, which means that the student has to tap into the loans to help defray the cost of attending college. In addition, some students must utilize their loans to help their family pay the EFC.</p>
<p>You sound like a person who is upset because “you have no shoes”, but you need to look at it from the perspective of the person “who has no feet.”</p>
<p>Proudmom…I’m not sure why you don’t understand about the income threshold for no loans at some schools. These schools are using institutional money to fill the void left by not including the student Direct or Perkins loans for low income students. They have (rightfully, in my opinion) determined that these students would benefit from a no loan package, while families with more resources can consider these student loans.</p>
<p>As noted above, low income students have other financial obstacles. At many schools they still are required to come up with a student contribution (some schools do offer work study for very low income students to fulfill this). In many cases, these lower income students work in the summers to contribute to household expenses, something higher income families don’t need to have their students do. In addition, their families are not in the position to help them with personal and discretionary expenses.</p>
<p>Actually, I called Penn and they told me that their formula is 60% of what one child costs for their 2-child FA. My experience with their financial aid office has been excellent.</p>
<p>thumper1…
My lack of “understanding” was pretty much rhetorical…I understand that it is preferential aid.
Beyond that I guess we will just have to disagree as to whether low income kids are more entitled to a pricey education than middle class kids.</p>
<p>I wouldn’t say low-income kids are “more entitled” but they certainly have more barriers beyond the cost of going to college that I think middle-class families take for granted. Cost of clothing (yes, clothing), transportation to and from school, school equipment and supplies (I know that drawing and architectural supplies were pricey but now there computers), all those dorm “decoration” and bed sheets, pillows, and stuff to make the room feel like home. </p>
<p>I’m pretty sure if a family earns $120,000, they can afford a $7500 loan - they can even afford a $30,000 loan over four years (because that’s the average cost of a new car - per Forbes, 2012). Low-income families may just not have the wherewithal to take on a $5000 loan (no credit simply because they don’t have the income).</p>
<p>Those $5500 loans are student loans…parents and students don’t need good credit to get them. </p>
<p>But I agree with slackermom. Low income students have many other barriers to attending college, some financial ones that are not just college related. It is not “entitlement”. These are students who cannot even entertain the notion of attending a very expensive school without significant help. </p>
<p>I know a $100,000 income is not sufficient to pay $60,000 in costs out of current earnings…but really $100,000 wage earners are not low income. </p>
<p>We will just have to agree to disagree on this one.</p>
<p>And for the record, there are very few schools that have that no loan policy for students…very few. So really this is only a discussion about the very very small number of schools that do this.</p>
<p>The VAST majority of college’s package student loans in financial aid packages.</p>
<p>Proudmom, there is that unfair niche that exists for those students whose parents have the income and assets that they should be able to pay for college, but for whatever reason they cannot or will not. They may not want to downsize to the level of families who do qualify for aid. I fall into that category. Yes, if I sell my house and get something much smaller, less expensive in a less pricey neighborhood and cut out a lot of things I could afford to pay the full price of colleges. But I have two old ladies, the grandmas living with us, and they need things like teeth and hearing aids and glasses that aren’t covered by Medicare and insurance. We have older kids that have come back to the house, and don’t want to turn them away. We consider safety a big deal in terms of neighborhood and with DH’s job with the hours he works, we don’t want the commute any further. I can go on forever that way, but the bottom line is that we don’t want to cut things that more families than not have to do without Too bad if two grandmas have to share the bedroom, and there is much fat to cut here Not so with those families who are close to the poverty line. So, yes, that my son has iittle to no say as to how we spend that money that the colleges say should go towards his costs, puts him at a disadvantage to his peers whose family does not have that money and can get financial aid. </p>
<p>That is a niche that is unfair, and a lot of kids are upset about this. Parents won’t pay, so they cannot get financial aid whereas the kid with the low EFC can get aid because it is deemed that those parents can’t pay. Nothing the kid can do about it, and these schools claim and even brag that no one is deined an education for lack of money. Yeah, they want to spit in the eye of the AD and folks saying that because it plain isn’t true. There is that category.</p>
<p>But, if the willingness to pay were made a factor in fin aid awards, no one would want to pay and the colleges won’t have that flow of cash that makes them able to operate the way they have. I’d love to see the age 24 till independent rule challenged in court. But the status quo right now is that the parents are on the line for their kids’ college costs and if they are deemed able to pay, then the kids don’t get the financial aid. This is the case really with only a few colleges as most colleges do not meet full need the vast majority of the time anyways, so it is a myth that most low income kids are lapping it up on the gravy train. Maybe for a local school that has the government teat in their mouths and is draining PELL and the loans as part of thier mission, and yes, I’m aware of a number of them. B</p>
<p>Yeah, I pretty much also agree. It isn’t as though they are saying to the middle class, you need to take loans out to pay for college. They are saying, you need to spend $XX, 000, which is all you can handle. Then we are going to throw $20k loans for four years (or more) on top of all that.</p>
<p>Proudmomx3, it would be funny if not true. These poor old ladies can’t get their eye/teeth replace on their social security if we did not supplement. Glasses, eye exams, dentures not covered. Neither are hearing aids, and my MIL needs them Can’t hear a thing without them. As a nation, we’ve already kicked the grannies down the stairs in their dotage. </p>
<p>As for anyone who truly feels that being low income and having few assets is the better position to be in over all, that can easily be remedied. Give up the job, the assets and live like someone who can get that full aid. Take a year to do this and see what goodies you get from the fin aid system if you really are so envious. It can be done. Now those without, cannot go the other way,so they are stuck. But every single person who makes too much to get aid that they think they would get fi they had less, can put themselves into that postion. Not too many takers on that one.</p>
<p>ProudMomx3, I am still in the fortunate position that 1) my son likes our state school and it is pretty good at his major, 2) his first choice is still currently Rice, which caps loans at $2500 per year, 3) He likes Penn, which I am trying to talk up to #2 from behind Cornell. For $30k less loans than Cornell, Penn needs to move higher.</p>
<p>In our experience, Penn was fantastic with aid. Brown was horrible. D didnt apply to Cornell, though. Hard to believe it could be worse than Brown. Every girl on her OV said their Brown package was their worst. </p>
<p>We know an athlete who was offered a slot at Cornell on the lacrosse team, who was not a strong recruit athletically. His parents told the coach they would not be needing fin aid, and the coach offered him the slot (contingent on admission, of course). He was a good student compared to most laxers. He received no other offers, not even other Ivies. Make of that what you will.</p>
<p>cpt-
I didn’t intend the comment to be offensive-I guess just the phrasing of “teeth” rather than dentures added some levity to an otherwise serious statement.</p>