<p>I think what matters most is not what a school makes of you, but what you make out of school that matters most. I think that a great deal of people go out and party too much (though, admittedly, a select few do excel despite that … I’m not one of them) Some people that aren’t from the elites still can go pretty far in life.</p>
<p>Do elite and LAC create good high paying jobs? </p>
<p>Not really. There are only so many good high paying out there and that number is decreasing since we seem intent as a nation of helping Asia take the manufacturing base.</p>
<p>I realize that Zuckerman and Gates and others used their brains and skills to create entire industries but generally speaking elite and LAC do not create actual jobs. Therefore, it is hard to justify a big out of pocket expenditure to get college based skills. </p>
<p>I think the buyer has to be very careful in choosing a program and how much it will cost. I think the buyer is quite dense to NOT look at the cost, frankly. I think looking at return in relation to cost is only smart. </p>
<p>You really have to justify a huge expenditure for education based on the value of contacts and networking and just general life experiences as much or more than actual return on investment where the return is enhanced learning power over one’s lifetime. </p>
<p>For most people, a good education at a state school is fine. That might not get you to Wall Street as an Investment Banker or capital hill as a senator but for most people those jobs are out of reach anyway. </p>
<p>Then again, Obama went to Harvard and it paid off for him.</p>
<p>Of course an education is more expensive than a vacation, but why is the quality of the experience of a vacation part of a valid consideration and not the experience of an education? Why is financial return the only salient issue?</p>
<p>As I mentioned before, my S took a course over the summer at our local state university and earned an A+. He said he’d be lucky to get a C at his home institution for the work he put into the course. But this was all that was asked of him.</p>
<p>At his private, elite institution his classmates are very invested in learning/grades (different for different kids) and are very capable. The faculty expect a lot of them. A B+ is an awesome grade in many classes.</p>
<p>Working to do well in this environment taught my son persistence, focus and resilience because there were some serious stumbles.</p>
<p>Won’t this qualities help him on the job?</p>
<p>Even if they don’t contribute to him getting a more prestigious/remunerative job, won’t they contribute to him keeping the job he has and perhaps rising in the area he chooses?</p>
<p>And if the quality of the friendships he has and the thought he engages in are different, aren’t outcomes affected?</p>
<p>I know there are some kids for whom none of this matters. I was one of those kids – noticeably more successful in one area of study and very self-motivated in that area. But my own children are not quite as motivated. I was actually a bit obsessive I think.</p>
<p>I am sure the experiences each had in college will be a factor in their life success, and more than that, in their satisfaction.</p>
<p>It is more than likely that it can’t be measured in dollars.</p>
<p>My daughter wants to spend her life as lawyer fighting the death penalty and working for prisoner rights. She probably could make more in tips at a bar without going to college at all, and she is spending money on law school, too.</p>
<p>Money is not the arbiter of all experiences, though I do agree, it is lovely to have.</p>
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<p>I couldn’t agree more. I simply cannot put this evaluation into any kind of framework of return on investment. I couldn’t care less that I might get a better “return” at my good state flagship. I don’t want my children having that experience; I want them to have a different one that I value highly.</p>
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<p>No, you don’t “have” to. Because here’s the thing. Whatever money my kids make in their chosen careers isn’t a return on MY investment, because it isn’t MY money. If they take their educations and choose to work at a nonprofit or on Wall Street, it’s all the same to me. My goal is that they are happy, healthy, and self-sufficient. It’s odd to think of it as a return on MY investment when I’m never going to see or take advantage of those paychecks.</p>
<p>Via the [Harvard</a> Law Record](<a href=“http://www.hlrecord.org/opinion/unemployed-law-student-will-work-for-160k-plus-benefits-1.1179172]Harvard”>http://www.hlrecord.org/opinion/unemployed-law-student-will-work-for-160k-plus-benefits-1.1179172):</p>
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<p>@kxc1961 - </p>
<p>I completely agree. I’m a current high school senior, and money is definitely one of the most important motivators for my attending college. Truthfully, I’m not a huge fan of the “experience” argument. Or rather, I’m sure it is a wonderful experience and all that–but I think a $250k education ought to produce tangible financial results as well.</p>
<p>I guess a lot of this stems from personal experiences. My parents came to the States with only about $5000 to their name, and my mom worked menial jobs for three years in order to support my father through law school. They were lucky, worked hard, and fared well for immigrants–well enough to pay nearly the full sticker price on my sister’s UPenn education. </p>
<p>It’s extremely frustrating, though, because my sister plans to teach middle school next year. Now, I certainly believe teachers are extremely valuable to society, and many of my teachers have served as role models for me. My sister, however, could just as easily have become a teacher by taking a full ride at the local state university. I’m completely unconvinced that her four years at Penn were worth a substantial portion of my parents’ life/retirement savings, and I definitely don’t intend to enter any field that doesn’t pay very well. </p>
<p>For those families that can comfortably afford an Ivy degree for their children…well, perhaps it is strange to weigh the value of a diploma by its financial returns. Not everyone can live by that philosophy, though. I, for one, want to be able to support my parents in their retirement (since my sister obviously won’t be able to), as well as have enough savings by age 40 to pursue non-profit work (the Peace Corps is really what I want to do with my life). In my position, it’s impossible to justify the cost of an Ivy degree by the “experience” alone. =P</p>
<p>Of course, there are fields in which college prestige and name (seem to?) matter. If my sister were heading into finance, the Penn degree would almost definitely be worth it.</p>
<p>hai this is anvitha.i like this forum</p>
<p>@Z.Exodus2008,
Congratulations to the accomplishment your parents had achieved. Like your parents, I came to this country 25 years ago with one way ticket, two luggages full of clothes and $200 in my name. A quarter century later, I did not become Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerburg, didn’t make it as big as John Paulson did. However, I had established a career that allows my family to live with a standard of middle class. My standard of success and happiness is different from that of my sons. Their goals are a lot loftier than mine. I wish them the best and I do everything in my power to assist. I want them to set their aims high, as they are starting at a much higher plateau than I did. One thing I want them to remember, however, is the face that no matter how high you are aiming and how high you are going, make sure that your feet are planted on the ground. You must make contributions to the society as a whole and don’t forget folks who are less fortunate.</p>
<p>Since many of us have limited resources, including my family, it would be disingenuous to say that a financial discussion of the benefits of college is not in order. Of course it is. And each family must assess for itself its own resources and what it is willing to pay for the product the child will receive.</p>
<p>However, I can’t support the idea that the benefits of a more expensive institution can be parsed by numbers alone. Yes, they can be part of the equation, it ignores too many intangible benefits to judge solely on monetary return.</p>
<p>As I have repeatedly pointed out, for some students the self exploration encouraged and allowed by a LAC may be the only way they will succeed at all. Someone might come along and say, “well, if student x is only a teacher (not my words) the investment is certainly not worth the cost.”</p>
<p>Well, it is if student x was going to drop out of the state u and not even be able to place himself in that career.</p>
<p>In our school district teachers earn over $100K. I know lawyers who earn less than that, and our pediatrician certainly doesn’t reap the economic rewards of an elite surgeon.</p>
<p>Do we really want to create a table of earnings and establish an above the line return and a below the line return?</p>
<p>I was willing to make sacrifices that some wouldn’t for my kids’ education. Others make even greater sacrifices that I.</p>
<p>Each family can decide for themselves between a variety of scenarios.</p>
<p>However, to limit the discussion to unknown future earnings as the only factor in the equation does an injustice to the tremendous value of education. Just my opinion.</p>
<p>And I think a young woman who has been to UPenn and is going to be a teacher is not ridiculous, nor has she wasted her family’s money. I know of many young people following this blueprint.</p>
<p>I heartily agree with salander’s comments in #69. In particular, “Money is not important only for people that have money,” and it appears that everyone who made that refrain in this thread “ha[s] money” or doesn’t care for it.</p>
<p>As I read through this discussion (and remember many others like it), it’s clear to me that your attitude about this has a lot to do with how much money you have, how you got it, and how long you (or your family) have had it. This affects your attitude about a lot of things–for example, how much you care about resale value when you buy a car, and how you evaluate whether various luxury items are “worth” what they cost.</p>
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<p>Did the cited article look into how Harvard graduates gained employment? With the existing family connections/some sort of network, many of them would do well financially regardless of where they went to school.</p>
<p>At our high school, about half of the top students (top 10%, 1500plus M and V, good EC’s) who can get into an elite, ultimately choose the state school honors option. It is not uncommon within one family to see one sibling go the full-ride route while another (indistinguishable wrt academic credentials) chooses full-pay at an elite school, and many will not go to a state school (if they can get into a higher-ranked private) if they are not offered either honors or substantial merit money, or both. </p>
<p>I myself have not seen any significant difference in demographics between students choosing full-rides and those who do not, except perhaps that the full-ride merit scholarship students tend to come from somewhat wealthier backgrounds, from families that will not get need-based aid but cannot comfortably afford full-pay. (Upper middle-class suburb, where the truly wealthy probably do not bother with the public high school anyway.) Most do seem to come from families where wealth has been gotten in careers that require excellent academic qualifications for entry (medicine, law, some engineers and professors) and where the general culture (Jewish, Asian)has held academic pursuits in high esteem.</p>
<p>Most kids today at harvard are on FA and the average FA is over half the cost of tuition, room and board. So, in fact, Harvard is a fantastic financial bargain for the majority of kids attending.</p>
<p>We paid full freight for one of our kids at Harvard. Was it worth it? We think so because he is a quiet guy and not very good at networking and blowing his own horn and in this super-competitive jobs economy those attributes are very important. Harvard essentially does that stuff for him. Also, being at an institution where there is no average, no high average, just super smart and extraordinary . . . is a unique experience that we don’t think is fully replicated by being within an honors college at most public universities, at least not at our public flagship.</p>
<p>The weird thing about going to Harvard, at least for our kid, is that it is a very humbling experience. He learned that while he is smart, he is not extraordinary. He bumped up against extraordinary a lot at Harvard. Seriously doubt that would have happened if he’d taken the free ride at the public U. I think if he’d done that, ironically, he’d probably have somewhat higher self-esteem.</p>
<p>It is woefully misguided to assume that going to Harvard makes you conceited. Quite the opposite!</p>
<p>I believe an Ivy education helps those from lower socio-economic, and especially immigrant, backgrounds more than it does the privileged. As lake42ks points out, kids from advantaged backgrounds will do well no matter where they go to school because of connections and general savoir faire. What my kids have gained from elite education is exposure to how the rich and powerful think and behave, and trust me it is not like their mother and father do. </p>
<p>Back when we were deciding between Ivy or free-rides elsewhere for our son, I read that year’s version of this debate. One poster had said that there’s a prevailing mindset of “anything is possible for me” at the top schools, and that that is invaluable. I would have to agree. In the last few months, I’ve seen my D attempt and succeed at things which I would have thought completely improbable given the facts. But she had the confidence to try. I think that confidence is more prevalent at the better schools because so many kids were raised to believe the world is their oyster. IMO, the Ivy (elite school) mindset and upper class social skills make a difference to success for someone not accustomed to either growing up.</p>
<p>When I said this once before, many people thought it was silly and suggested that there are just as many boors among elite school graduates, couldn’t my kids learn social skills in plenty of other ways, etc. But having just read the NYT feature “Paper Tigers” by Wesley Yang, it is clear that hard work and brains are not all that one needs to be successful. One young man he interviewed talked about what he learned about the social behavior (read: of the “ruling” white class) at Williams–for example, everyone was always smiling at each other!</p>
<p>Those of you who grew up in the world of privilege don’t always realize the subtle nuances of what you know to do that contributes to your succees. Those of us born on the other side of the tracks simply haven’t ever learned those things. An Ivy/elite school education can be an effective social leveler.</p>
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I’m reading “Outliers” by Malcolm Gladwell, and he makes a point similar to this–that successful people are raised in environments where they are encouraged to advocate for themselves, and to communicate well with adults to get what they want.</p>
<p>But I think that the makeup of the Ivy classes has changed in the last generation or two. I went to one of the Ivies 30 years ago, and there were quite a few students there who were from privileged backgrounds, prep schools, etc. There still are, but they are different–they are all (or almost all) individual super-achievers. They don’t just have good grades and scores from those prep schools–they have truly impressive achievements in ECs, music, sports, public service, etc. The top schools get so many applications from qualified students now, that they just don’t take that many kids who are just good (or very very good) students, even if they are legacies or from donor families. I think that exposure to a large number of super-motivated high-achieving kids like that can jump-start the motivation of a kid who might not be quite so driven in high school. I’ve seen this with my own son, who just finished his second year at an Ivy–his overall activity level has increased significantly. I really question if this would have happened at a school with a more mixed bag of students.</p>
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<p>Can you expand on specifics, how this manifests itself?</p>
<p>Gladwell gives an example of a super-genius kid from a poor family who somehow can’t manage to convince his college to fix a financial aid problem, and can’t persuade another college to switch his schedule when he has transportation problems. He contrasts that with J. Robert Oppenheimer, who was able to persuade Cambridge (or Oxford) to allow him to stay after he had tried to poison his tutor. Gladwell says that kids brought up in middle and upper class families learn how to negotiate the world of adults, that they feel entitled to have their needs considered, and that they can advocate for themselves.</p>
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<p>Exactly. Everyone needs to stop thinking that Harvard and other Ivy League schools are outrageously expensive when, in reality, they are usually far cheaper and more affordable than state schools…especially UCs which are running out of financial aid due to government budget cuts.</p>
<p>And to this article…man people, y’all are just so jelly yo kid can’t get to be part of no Crim Crew, ■■■■■</p>
<p>You know, I’ll bet if Harvard just charged everybody 10% of the family income, with no upper limit, they might take in even more money.</p>