Does low income justify low SATs?

<p>I don't have a problem w/rich smart kids getting into colleges. I'm sorry, but I just don't see how coming from an affluent background diminishes one's accomplishments. There is a very strong "let's detest the rich" attitude that's prevalent in CC and it's quite annoying. What I have a problem w/is the dumb rich kids who take up spots at top colleges, the kids who have rich parents who went to Harvard and basically buy their son/daughter an Ivy league spot. These people are the problem, not the rich kids w/2300 SATs who get into HYP.</p>

<p>"You forget that its a test to examine the compilation of knowledge you have gained over the years."</p>

<p>If this was true, SAT math would be much more complex than it actually is. Much of the Math section is basic algebra hidden in ambiguous questions. It takes an innate intellect to be able to work around the ambiguity and solve the questions. This ability can't be purchased. After all, you said it yourself:</p>

<p>"It's more a test of logic, reasoning, and your ability to perform under constraints."</p>

<p>in a word, No.</p>

<p>


</p>

<p>The most accurate statement made yet.</p>

<p>...and you wondered why I voted for you as most intelligent.</p>

<p>Mr Payne, I'd like to commend you on your excellent post #17</p>

<p>"IQ is static after age 3"</p>

<p>that proves my point.</p>

<p>the first years count.</p>

<p>It probably depends if your definition of low income is $60K a year or $16K a year</p>

<p>
[quote]
that proves my point.</p>

<p>the first years count.

[/quote]
I agree that the first years count, although the statement you agreed with initially was quite wrong.</p>

<p>would change it from</p>

<p>"amount of income => availability of resources => amount of intelligence"</p>

<p>to</p>

<p>how mentally capable you are, innate-ly + availability of resources = SAT score</p>

<p>So we agree.</p>

<p>so basically there are totally DIFFERENT types of people around, no matter how rich or poor they are. There are rich and smart ones, rich and dumb ones etc.. you get it..</p>

<p>as with the low income, if you are poor and are GENUINELY SMART, then you'll do well on the SATs.</p>

<p>Are you guys arguing that Tony Jack isn't smart, because he didn't do as well on his SATs as some other people may have? The article proves him to be extremely intelligent - I commend Amherst, and am proud of my school, for realizing his potential.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Are you guys arguing that Tony Jack isn't smart, because he didn't do as well on his SATs as some other people may have? The article proves him to be extremely intelligent - I commend Amherst, and am proud of my school, for realizing his potential.

[/quote]
No one has said that. All I've seen is that people recognized the SAT as a test that correlates with intelligence. Certainly not a foolproof indicator.</p>

<p>Oh, I suppose he just isn't "GENUINELY SMART", then? Not quite sure what that makes him.</p>

<p>We don't judge or do correlation based on exceptions.</p>

<p>Notice why these accomplishments make the news; they are, apparently, not the the norm.</p>

<p>My stats teacher once phrased this very well "Rich people are rich for a reason." On the average, they get rich because they are smart. The average millionare didn't win the lottery; he used his ability.</p>

<p>That's not saying there aren't smart people who are poor, but on the AVERAGE, smart people are richer than dumb people. Then they pass down the intelligence to their kids.</p>

<p>Has anyone ever read Freakonomics? Very good explaination of this in there.</p>

<p>"if you are poor and are GENUINELY SMART, then you'll do well on the SATs." Is not a judgment on people who don't do well on the SATs, eh?</p>

<p>Even "genuinely smart" people can do poorly on the SAT, especially if they have not had exposure to the test. Yes, smart people will do better than less intelligent people, but even smart people can improve their performance by studying, reading, and practicing. But they need to know how to direct their efforts to make them as effective as possible. Richer kids are more likely to be exposed to these tests early, giving them time to prepare appropriately. How many cc'ers REALLY take the SAT/ACT completely cold?</p>

<p><em>raises hand</em> <em>looks around</em>...=)</p>

<p>I flipped through a review book but didn't really do anything. I did have the PSAT twice before though. No practice for that either.</p>

<p>
[quote]
IQ is static after age 3 (although IQ at that means something different than it does for adults). Twins separated at birth have IQs that correlate extremely well even when one looks at vastly different upbringings.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Actually, IQ is changeable after age 3. It's just that changes in IQ after age 3 rarely persist for several years. Also, correlation between child IQ and parental IQ is approximately 0.4 for pre-teens, 0.6 for teenagers, and 0.8 for adults (source: The g factor, Jensen). </p>

<p>Anyways, I got 510 Verbal in 8th grade. I increased it to 690 in 9th grade. My Math score increased from 540 in 8th grade to 76 PSAT in 10th grade (1 wrong). These scores came before the new SAT - it still suffices to say that Verbal is preppable by reading more and learning more vocabulary words. My 10th grade PSAT score pretty much beat all the 11th grade PSAT scores of all of the CTY Talent Search kids in my school whose 8th grade SAT scores surpassed my 8th grade score (I know this because none of those kids made National Merit and my 10th grade score missed my state's cutoff by 1 question). Why is this the case? It could be either (a) due to my unusual levels of self-motivation, (b) due to intelligence that did not match my "natural" potential, or (c) a combination of (a) and (b).</p>

<p>Scores ARE preppable - it's just that there is a point where prepping more yields diminishing returns (as the collegeboard statistics indicate - the average SAT score gain among people who retake the test is so small as to prove almost negligible). The other issue is that A LOT of people are not self-motivated and start blaming their school systems for inadequate preparation when they don't have the self-initiative to prep themselves (this is a personality trait related to lack of openness - and it tends to stay in individuals). Usually, people stop retaking the test once they experience "diminishing marginal returns" with respect to more tests taken. The question is - is this "diminishing marginal returns" due more to innate intelligence, or due to one's "reflective intelligence?" (this is an intelligence distinct from IQ that Perkins mentions in his book "Outsmarting IQ"). </p>

<p>==
The more pressing issue is whether the SAT is an accurate measure of IQ or not. And it is not (especially with its recent changes). Before the 1994 renorming of the tests, Mensa accepted SAT scores. Now Mensa no longer accepts those scores.</p>

<p>Even if IQ scores have a 0.8 correlation between identical twins reared apart, the fact is that identical twins more often than not have very similar personality traits with each other (source: The Nurture Assumption, Judith Rich Harris). The correlations usually zone in around 0.5. And these personality traits could be the reason behind the very high 0.8 correlations. The question is, then, are these correlations similar between two twins who are very open to new experiences AND between two twins who are not open to new experiences? If not, then there's also an element of personality in play that plays into self-motivation that in turn plays into IQ scores.</p>

<p>==</p>

<p>Anyways, I do believe that variation due to environment in SAT scores will mean less in the future - as the Internet becomes increasingly available. There is PLENTY of test prep material on the Internet - free of charge. The problem is that it's not always easy to track the material down (but it may become easier with time). It also depends on the strength of your library system ( I was able to go without buying a single book on Chem, Math IIC, or the SAT due to the strength of my library system).</p>

<p>I entered college two years early though, relieving me of the burden of seeing what my SAT scores would be had I stayed in high school.</p>

<p>Also, I'm a victim of IQ testing. I was tracked with all of the lower students just because my scores on state standardized tests (and on IQ-like tests) were too low. The funny thing is that my 9th grade SAT score percentile (relative to 12th graders) beat my 8th grade state standardized test percentile (relative to 8th graders). As a result I did not realize my potential (but my classmates were stupid and I finally realized that and I started educating myself). And then I realized how more motivated and academically able I was than pretty much everyone else in my school.</p>

<p>==
The funny thing is that I highly distrust IQ tests when they come to individuals (when no other information is present). Nonetheless, I do believe that IQ tests can predict a lot with respect to entire populations (where differences between real IQ and tested IQ in individuals are averaged out). Hence why I still like Herrnstein and Murray's "Bell Curve). </p>

<p>As to the first question - low amounts of educational opportunities often prevent people from realizing their FULL IQ potential (IQ is improvable with some prep - however - the improvement does encounter diminishing marginal returns - the problem is - that some people don't even improve to the point that they see such diminishing marginal returns due to their lack of cultural capital - and in the case of THOSE people, low income/cultural capital DOES justify their low SAT scores). But these can be mediated with the Internet, provided that low income students have reliable resources to inform them of which Internet websites are more reliable and which ones are less reliable (one is college confidential - however - college confidential tends to attract the more wealthy kids despite its high google pagerank). Also, some people have "latent" interest in academic activities. But they are never stimulated in school - and as a result they never realize their "latent" interest in academic activities. </p>

<p>==
However, I'm a very unusual case and am likely to have personality attributes that are so far from the norm that a test that predicts the academic abilities of most people (this assumes a controlled sample) is highly unlikely to apply to me.</p>