I am a rising college sophomore in a dilemma. I want to be a criminal defense attorney but I am worried about the money. I went to Ball state for my freshman year and didn’t like it so I’m transferring. I originally planned on going to Indiana University but I am realizing that I’m going to be in 90k in undergrad debt (out of state student from Missouri) and 120k in law school debt. Most of my loans will be from parent plus/grad plus. I am a good student an am majoring in economics. I am worried that I am borrowing too much for school all together. So, does where you do your undergrad affect where you get into law school. Say a Big 10 school vs an in state school. I don’t want to go to a state school because I feel like they aren’t any good (like ball state), and there aren’t any good schools in Missouri. I am also worried that I wont be able to pay off 210k+ of debt. I’m banking on getting a job in the public or private sector making at least 60k a year, putting the majority of it to loans. Is that unreasonable? I could really use some good advice. Thank you!
State schools are good. They provide with a good education. If you are serious about going to Law school go to state school and study very hard. Do well in LSAT.
The good thing is that state schools are so cheap.
Undergrad debt is bad if you are considering professional school. Transfer someplace where you can keep your loans as low as possible, get A’s, rock the LSAT and get some merit money for law school.
One’s undergraduate school is usually an insignificant factor in law school admissions. The single most important factor (over 50%) is one’s LSAT score. Next is GPA.
Avoid or minimize undergraduate loans if planning on attending law school.
Get as few loans as possible because law school is not cheap.
Agree with the above post that law school is not cheap, but law schools do offer a substantial number of merit (LSAT score & GPA) based scholarships. The standards vary considerably, but typically are based on exceeding a particular law school’s median LSAT & GPA .
^^Publisher:
I concur with your post, at least for the past decade. Merit scholarships were plentiful as applications to LS plummeted, particularly from high testers. However, law school apps appear to be on the rebound. If that trend continues, LS may start to reduce merit aid and turn themselves into the cash cows that they used to be.
Just a consideration for today’s undergrads.
@bluebayou: Thank you for your post addressing my post.
Law school deans tend to regard increasing their law school’s US News ranking as one way to keep their jobs. So long as law schools are competing in the US News rankings, there will be competition for students possessing numbers (LSAT & GPA) above that particular law school’s medians because median LSAT scores & median GPAs of matriculated students heavily affect a law school’s US News ranking.
To clarify my post above (#5), although a law school applicant with a 162 LSAT & a 3.6 GPA may not receive scholarship consideration at the top ranked law schools (barring URM status),and may not be offered admission to the top ranked law schools, there are dozens of law schools which may offer very substantial scholarship/merit money if those numbers (162 & 3.6) are above that law school’s median LSAT & GPA numbers.
Currently there is intense competition among the nation’s most elite law firms to attract & to retain talented attorneys.
First year salaries at biglaw firms are now about $190.000 plus a year end bonus and a summer bonus (the newly added summer bonus is $5,000 for new associates in their first year of law practice, $7,500 for second years & increases yearly for six to eight years for associates). Year end bonuses tend to be higher.
^^There is intense competition among law students to get those limited number of jobs at the top law firms. Many of these firms recruit primarily at the top tier law schools.
I do think that undergrad school is one of many many components of the application that the top law schools consider along with GPA, LSAT, recommendations, essay, (if applicable) work experience. A state school can certainly be a path to get into a great law school but the applicant would need to find a way to stand out from the crowd (as would an applicant from any college).
FWIW here is a list of where Harvard Law students went undergrad for one class and as you can see many different colleges are represented. https://hls.harvard.edu/dept/jdadmissions/apply-to-harvard-law-school/undergraduate-colleges/
@happy1: Disagree with your second paragraph in post #9 above. The only way that a law school applicant needs to stand out (assuming non-URM status) is by earning a high LSAT score. Next is a high GPA.
If you think that those students admitted to Harvard Law School from the 182 or so different colleges & universities did so via work experience, essays & ECs, then I encourage you to examine the class profile (LSAT 75th% =175, LSAT 50th% = 173, LSAT 25th% = 170. GPA 75th% = 3.96, GPA 50th% = 3.86, GPA 25th% = 3.76.)
A 173+ is all that one needs to stand out for HLS. The mathematical fact is that there are not enough high LSAT scores to go around. As a result, HLS needs to accept 4 out of 5 of 173’s+ (~80% admit rate. HSL has no choice it it wants to maintain its median.
@Publisher We are in complete agreement on the necessity of top grades and standardized tests in the process. I clearly stated that GPA/LSAT were an important part of the process – an applicant without top grades and standardized tests has no virtually chance for a top tier law school. However, similar to undergraduate, strong GPA/LSAT scores alone will not get one into a top tier law school as there is not enough room for all of the qualified candidates. That is where things like recommendations, essays, work experience can help an applicant to stand out.
@happy1: We still disagree. A high LSAT & a high GPA can, not will, get one admitted to almost every law school other than Stanford & Yale, and, to a lesser extent, Harvard (even more so for URMs).
The distinguishing extras often come into play for major named scholarships for law schools below the top three.
An interesting part of Northwestern’s law school application process is the required interview. Harvard interviews many, not all as does Northwestern, applicants as well.
@Publisher We will have to agree to disagree then. Since the terms of service at CC specifically say that it is not a debate society, we should leave it at that.
Anna Ivey & a couple of other famous former law school admissions directors have written books that may be used to support both of our positions. Although not scientifically sound, law school numbers web site tends to support my position.
One way to examine this question is to see how many, if any, applicants to a particular law school with above median numbers (LSAT & GPA) were rejected and why. My position is that once we get below the top 3 law schools (Yale, Stanford & Harvard), that very few, if any at all, would receive rejections. And, if rejected, I suspect that the rejection was due to a serious negative revealed in the application such as disciplinary action or convictions, and not due to a less than stellar essay or mundane work experience or lack of ECs. However, yield protection also plays a significant role with respect to an above median applicant being waitlisted or possibly even rejected.
A much better way is to examine the available facts. Look at the size of the 1L class at HLS, the count how many 173’s that they need to keep their median. Then look at the published LSAT score ranges. One has to extrapolate to the 173 cutoff, but the numbers are clear. There just ain’t that many 173’s for all of the top schools to share, and the HLS class is large.
I know regular posters on this forum have consistently said that LORs, essays, ECs do not matter. I only have one data point, my younger daughter’s. She applied to law schools when she first graduated from UG and only got into a handful of top 14s. Two years later, with the same LSAT & GPA, but with much stronger LORs, real relevant job experience and better essays, she was able to get into few top 5s with merit money. Looking at some admission plot charts, there were many applicants with higher LSAT and GPA scores than D2 who were turned down.
@dmoneyy1499:
To answer OP’s question, s/he would be better off transferring to Truman State than to Indiana University. And law schools will make no difference between Ball State and Indiana, and would not distinguish between Indiana and Truman State or another similar very reputable university. However the debt WILL make a difference. 90k+ for an equivalent undergraduate degree is crazy.
I think Truman is still accepting transfer applications.