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<p>Since when are engineers paid less than a secretary?..</p>
<p>Engineering is possibly the most lucrative career that only needs a four year degree. Please enlighten me on all the other prestigious careers that only need a bachelors.</p>
<p>“Since when are engineers paid less than a secretary?..”</p>
<p>You’ll notice, I wrote legal secretary. And to answer your question: since I can remember. Legal secretaries make well above $80k/yr in DC and well above $100k/yr in NYC. Starting salaries for engineers in the NYC area are $70k at best. I know of several companies in NJ that routinely hire master’s level engineers at around $65k.</p>
<p>“Engineering is possibly the most lucrative career that only needs a four year degree. Please enlighten me on all the other prestigious careers that only need a bachelors.”</p>
<p>Are you really being serious? Have you not heard of investment banking or consulting? I have a friend working for JP Morgan with a bachelor’s in history who makes more in a week than most engineers do all year. Paralegals make more than bachelor’s level engineers in DC and NY. As reiterated above, so do legal secretaries. Accountants make more, though it’s true they have one additional year of school beyond the bachelor’s. Even working as an examiner for the US patent and trademark office is a career that pays more than standard, bachelor’s level, engineering jobs. That’s off the top of my head.</p>
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<p>To be fair, those are the salaries in the major cities that happen to be centers of litigation and law-making. </p>
<p>However, see below. </p>
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<p>Yeah, but to be fair, the vast vast majority of history grads make mediocre salaries.</p>
<p>That’s why I have noted the slanted nature of engineering pay scales. That is, the very best engineers don’t really get paid much more than do the mediocre engineers. For example, at almost any company, you are hard pressed to find that even the star engineers with many years of experience will getting paid more than 2x or, at very most, 3x more than even just a new engineering hire. {Note, not talking about those who are promoted to management, I’m just talking about those who are still working as engineers.} Furthermore, the starting salaries don’t seem to vary highly either within a particular discipline. With the possible exception of EECS, grads from the top engineering schools who actually take engineering jobs don’t really make that much more than the engineering grads from a no-name school. For example, there is practically no difference in average starting salary between the ChemE BS grads from MIT and the starting ChemE salary nationwide.</p>
<p>With such a pay scale, the benefits mostly accrue to the less productive. Like I’ve said before, if you’re just an average student who goes to a no-name school, then getting an engineering degree and getting that $50k starting salary is a pretty sweet deal. Honestly, what else were you going to do? It’s not like you had a lot of great career options. That’s why engineering probably is indeed a good career for the majority (i.e. I would guess 75%) of existing engineers. That’s also why I’ve always said that the average American student would benefit from majoring in engineering. After all, most Americans go to average universities and get unexceptional grades. They’re not going to get other high-paying options, so engineering really is probably the best they can do. </p>
<p>The problem is with the best students. These people are not well served by the engineering payscale, as they really do have a lot of other lucrative options, and they would probably be well advised to take those options. Engineering companies simply don’t want to compete for the best people.</p>
<p>“To be fair, those are the salaries in the major cities that happen to be centers of litigation and law-making.”</p>
<p>Agreed, but jersey is also a pharmaceutical mecca. It also has plenty of non-pharma engineering work that is pretty high end (see Bell Labs and the many smaller shops in and around Princeton). I think that comparing NJ engineering salaries (which are inflated due to the cost of living) to the salaries of professionals in the same area is, if not apples to apples, certainlly not apples to oranges.</p>
<p>“Yeah, but to be fair, the vast vast majority of history grads make mediocre salaries.”</p>
<p>Absolutely. And, as you point out below this quote, the best engineers do only slightly better. I have another friend from grad school who is now a professor at MIT making substantially less than those legal secretaries I mentioned. He’s one of the brightest people I know. Another friend works for Intel in Oregon and does OK, but is not exactly lighting the world on fire. Yet a third friend is a tenured researcher at the NIH and can’t afford more than a two bedroom house in the area nor to send his kids to private school. I realize that these examples are anecdotal, but they definitely reflect what’s going on at the higher end of the engineering/applied science pay scale. And it’s not very good.</p>
<p>“average student who goes to a no-name school, then getting an engineering degree and getting that $50k starting salary is a pretty sweet deal.”</p>
<p>True. I thought it was kind of amusing that the supposed “underlings” (technicians or people with mediocre academic credentials) at a friend’s well known biotech firm make only about $15-20k/yr less than the PhDs bossing them around. The salaries of some senior technicians are substantially better than those of mid-level “senior scientists” at the same facility. To be sure, the techs do extremely valuable work… but this pay scale suggests little economic incentive for getting a post-graduate education. People might disagree, but I think this is counter-intuitive given that the PhDs are responsible for driving the research programs. I also think it’s funny that the lawyers processing the paperwork make more money per invention than do the people who came up with the ideas in the first place. I take that back, it’s really not funny at all. </p>
<p>Incidentally, the head of the NIH makes less than a junior US congressman.</p>
<p>An additional thought: part of the problem is really not that engineering pays so poorly. It’s that salaries in jobs in other sectors have become inflated. An engineering salary probably still does go pretty far in parts of the country where engineers don’t have to compete with consultants/lawyers/bankers for resources. However, magnets for really high-end engineers are generally in places like suburban SF, LA, NY, DC or Chicago. Of course, some of the high end stuff also gets down in really out of the way places like Oak Ridge, TN or Sandia, NM. What I’m saying probably doesn’t apply as well to those places. I imagine an engineering salary might actually go pretty far there.</p>
<p>Even if you look at the most lucretive field of engineering, electrical engineering, the average salary is only around 12 % higher than the average salary for a legal secretary in DC. The average starting salary for a BSEE is around 10 % lower than the average salary for a legal secretary in DC. Note that the vast majority of legal secretaries have no college education.</p>
<p>“The national average for all electrical engineers is about $72,000 this year. […] In 2008, a new BSEE graduate could expect a salary offer of at least $57,000 and in many instances, starting salaries of $65,000 have been given.”</p>
<p>source: [Average</a> electrical engineer salary](<a href=“www.electrical-designer-guide.com”>www.electrical-designer-guide.com)</p>
<p>"The average salary for LEGAL SECRETARY jobs in Washington, DC is $64,000. "</p>
<p>source: [LEGAL</a> SECRETARY Salaries in Washington, DC | SimplyHired](<a href=“http://www.simplyhired.com/a/salary/search/q-LEGAL+SECRETARY/l-Washington,+DC]LEGAL”>http://www.simplyhired.com/a/salary/search/q-LEGAL+SECRETARY/l-Washington,+DC)</p>
<p>“Become a Legal Secretary Step1
Get a high school diploma or a GED. You don’t need a college degree to become a legal secretary; but acquiring secretarial skills and taking courses in business-related subjects when you are in high school will help put you on the right career path.”</p>
<p>source:[How</a> to Become a Legal Secretary | eHow.com](<a href=“http://www.ehow.com/how_2068958_become-legal-secretary.html]How”>Legal Specialist Job Description - Career Trend)</p>
<p>Well JAOAKL lets be honest do you really think a legal secretary only needs to have a high school education? They might not need a 4 year degree but I assure you they need to have some training beyond high school. And keep in mind a legal secretary has to be very good at what he or she does and their responsibilities are surely beyond those of your average secretary. </p>
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<p>Yes consulting and finance are lucrative careers we know this. Not everyone in these areas are like your multi-milliionaire friend. </p>
<p>Accountants do not make more than engineers. They usually start off lower and their salaries don’t rise any faster.</p>
<p>[PayScale</a> - Accounting Salaries, Accountant Salaries, Average Salaries](<a href=“http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Accountant/Salary]PayScale”>Accountant Salary in 2025 | PayScale)</p>
<p>A paralegal? Really buddy? I knew immediately this was a lie but here ya go. </p>
<p>[PayScale</a> - Paralegal Salaries, Average Salary of a Paralegal](<a href=“http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Paralegal/Salary]PayScale”>Paralegal Salary in 2025 | PayScale)</p>
<p>Perhaps you’re right about the DC/NY areas but I don’t think we really care about that. The majority of people don’t live in those areas. </p>
<p>Your precious legal secretaries don’t make more either. You said this yourself earlier.</p>
<p>[PayScale</a> - Legal Secretary / Legal Aid Salary, Average Salaries](<a href=“http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Legal_Secretary_%2F_Legal_Aid/Salary]PayScale”>Legal Secretary / Legal Aid Salary in 2025 | PayScale)</p>
<p>[PayScale</a> - Electrical Engineering Salaries, Government Engineering Salaries](<a href=“http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Electrical_Engineer/Salary]PayScale”>Electrical Engineer Salary in 2025 | PayScale)</p>
<p>“Well JAOAKL lets be honest do you really think a legal secretary only needs to have a high school education?”</p>
<p>LOL. Yeah, actually I work in a law firm. I have a legal secretary. I have never met a legal secretary with a college education. I’m not saying they don’t exist, but they must be incredibly rare. You might also want to read the link I provided. It explains the background needed to become a legal secretary. </p>
<p>“Yes consulting and finance are lucrative careers we know this. Not everyone in these areas are like your multi-milliionaire friend.”</p>
<p>True. What we do know is that there are absolutely no practicing engineers that are paid nearly as much as he is for their work. We also know that, despite not having any specific educational entry requirement, investment bankers make a lot more than the average engineer. We also know that engineers themselves could make a lot more as investment bankers than they do as engineers. We also know that this is at least one of the reasons that some engineers quit engineering to work on wall street.</p>
<p>“A paralegal? Really buddy? I knew immediately this was a lie but here ya go.”</p>
<p>You’re not very good at this, are you?</p>
<p>Average salary for a paralegal in Washington DC: “$59,000” = avg. starting salary for BSEE + $2k</p>
<p>[paralegal</a> Salaries in Washington, DC - Free Salary Search](<a href=“http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=paralegal&l1=Washington%2C+DC]paralegal”>http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=paralegal&l1=Washington%2C+DC)</p>
<p>“Your precious legal secretaries don’t make more either.”</p>
<p>True, they make slightly less. You win. Enjoy the perks that come with making slightly more than legal secretaries. After four years of college, vector calculus and ABET accreditation… you’ve earned them.</p>
<p>Look, I can understand that you’re upset, but you need to calm down. I’m not saying that engineers DESERVE to make as little as they do. In fact, I believe that engineers and applied scientists provide far more to the economy and the country than their compensation would seem to indicate. In fact, i think it’s nearly criminal that legal secretaries, paralegals or anybody like that is in the same universe as college-educated engineers.</p>
<p>Now, take a deep breath… re-read what I wrote and see if you can get it the second time around.</p>
<p>Most people don’t live in DC. If one wants to move to DC to persue their dreams of being a paralegal then more power to them. My point was the average engineer in this country makes more than the average paralegal. </p>
<p>I’m not mad, I just find it annoying how you belittle engineering because there are other professions that make more money. </p>
<p>Do you ever stop to think that people do things other than to persue money? Why would anyone spend 5+ years in college to become a K-12 teacher? People should persue what interests them not what pays the best. </p>
<p>You also seem to have this notion that engineers have low salaries because there are other professions with higher ones. How is making 55k+ out of college low? How can you consider a career that averages 75k across the country as a low paying one? To me that’s absurd. I’m sorry maybe we were raised in different environments. Where I come from you can raise a family quite well on that salary. </p>
<p>Trust me I would much rather spend 4 years in college than be some lawyer’s secretary.</p>
<p>Sakky is completely right. It doesn’t seem totally fair…but when you think about it kids at MIT, Stanford, (insert top private school with good engineering here) are learning the same stuff as kids at Average Joe State U. And they don’t get paid much more than them, if more at all. I completely admire engineers myself, they truly create the world of tomorrow that we all will live in. Think about the iPhone. The people who designed that are pretty brilliant (look up capacitive touchscreens), but what does an iPhone cost? 600 bucks at original price? I mean if engineers were paid the amount they should, that phone would be way more costly. Our society is always used to new technology, something is “cool” and “innovative” for a couple months, then its on to the next breakthrough. Because of this mentality, engineers aren’t as valuable as they should be, and aren’t paid as much. All this comes back to that article interviewing the MIT kids going to ibanking and consulting instead of engineering jobs, much as other kids at top privates with good engineering are doing</p>
<p>I don’t think it is an issue of I-phones being more expensive (the market determines that) its just that these $100+ billion tech companies would be worth less because of a decline in eps. While shipping manufacturing and r & d overseas is a boon to short term earnings, when you’re largest consumer (usa) can’t afford the product, the results are predictable.</p>
<p>“I’m not mad, I just find it annoying how you belittle engineering because there are other professions that make more money.”</p>
<p>But that’s the thing… I’m not belittling any one except, maybe the paralegals and legal secretaries. If you pay attention, what I’m actually saying is that engineers should be making far more than these people. I think it’s absurd that they are not. Again, please try the deep breath/second read technique. You’ll get it eventually.</p>
<p>“Do you ever stop to think that people do things other than to persue money? Why would anyone spend 5+ years in college to become a K-12 teacher? People should persue what interests them not what pays the best.”</p>
<p>Yes, and as I explained above, I was one of those people for a long time. Two points: 1) I don’t really believe that what motivates people to teach pre-university students is the same as what motivates people to become engineers, 2) I’m not arguing or suggesting career options to people. I’m simply saying that engineering ought to pay more than it does and I’m pointing out that low salaries of engineers contribute to a loss of engineering talent. </p>
<p>“How can you consider a career that averages 75k across the country as a low paying one? To me that’s absurd. I’m sorry maybe we were raised in different environments. Where I come from you can raise a family quite well on that salary.”</p>
<p>Fair point. Where I come from, that’s not a great salary. You can raise a family on that kind of salary here too, but it won’t be very easy and you won’t live very well if it’s your only source of income.</p>
<p>“Trust me I would much rather spend 4 years in college than be some lawyer’s secretary.”</p>
<p>Then, congratulations on your career move. My point is that legal secretaries, valuable as they are, do not produce the kind of real value for our society that engineers do. My point is that the salary comparison doesn’t reflect this. My point has nothing to do with you personally or your career/life choices.</p>
<p>Disclaimer: I admire anybody who works hard, regardless of their level of education or salary. Legal secretaries are no exception. It’s just that I feel that salaries are a reflection of what our society values. In my opinion, the society over-values service sector bureaucrats over people who actually do things (i.e., come up with new ideas, refine old ones, make stuff, etc.). I think that’s going to be a problem for the nation and the economy as we move forward, particularly as we’re finding out that our financial sector really can’t make money out of nothing. I think we should focus on our strengths, invest in and retain engineering talent, and remain a powerhouse in technology. I fear that we are losing our edge and the relatively low pay of engineers is a contributing factor.</p>
<p>I apologize I misunderstood you then. I’m sure I just didn’t read some of your previous posts. </p>
<p>Where do you live? Here in Milwaukee you could easily raise a family on 75k. And if both parents made that you would be upper class…</p>
<p>No hard feelings. </p>
<p>DC. Here if both of your parents made $75k, you’d be doing reasonably well, but you certainly would not be upper middle class.</p>
<p>BTW: i also didn’t mean to imply that my friend at JP Morgan is better than any one or that his salary is deserved. In fact, I believe that anybody who has the brains to become a great engineer also has the brains to do well on wall street. Of course, brains aren’t necessarily what matters most in terms of succeeding on Wall St.</p>
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<p>To add to the irony, the country is apparently quite willing to pay for technology skills, but only certain technology skills.</p>
<p>Take corporate IT work: that is, the administration of computer systems and networks. Many of us know IT as the guys that we call when we can’t access our employee email account or when our employer-issued computer becomes flaky. These guys are quite well paid, and it’s not that hard to become an IT guy. </p>
<p>For example, the average Cisco Certified Internetworking Expert (CCIE) is paid around $100k a year. Now, granted, that includes experience, but even a CCIE with zero experience can reasonably expect to make $50k a year. Nor is becoming a CCIE particularly hard. All you really need is to buy about $10k of used Cisco practice gear (basically, a stack of routers and switches) from Ebay, and probably spend 3-6 months studying and practicing for the exam. You certainly don’t need a college degree. Then, each particular test attempt costs $1250 each. You’ll probably fail the first few times, but that’s no problem, because you can just keep taking the test over and over again (you can go once a month) until you finally pass. Hence, I would estimate that becoming a CCIE will not take you more than 9-12 months. Furthermore, even that $10k of gear cost can be mostly recovered, for as soon as you pass, you just sell the gear right back on Ebay and get most of your money back. </p>
<p>Frankly, that’s a heck of a lot easier than going to college and getting an engineering degree. I know many CCIE’s who never graduated from college. Heck, I even know a few who didn’t even graduate from high school. I remember some CCIE’s who never graduated from college who were laughing at college students who would graduate and come out making less than they were. </p>
<p>What I find even more ironic is that many CCIE’s end up making more money than the engineers at Cisco itself who are actually designing the gear. In other words, it’s somehow more lucrative to configure and administer Cisco gear than to design the gear in the first place. </p>
<p>Or take Oracle. An experienced Oracle database administrator will probably make $90-120k a year, in rare cases up to $200k (i.e. if he also knows how to build secure data vaults and performing data mining). That’s more money than many engineers make at Oracle itself. Furthermore, again, you don’t need a college degree, and certainly not an engineering college degree, to become an Oracle admin. All you need is to know how to use Oracle: hence, once again, getting the software (which you can order for free on a trial basis), setting up a home lab for practice, and passing the certification exams. </p>
<p>I think that actually speaks to part of the problem with college degree programs in general and with engineering programs in particular. They don’t actually teach you a skill that is immediately marketable. For example, CS programs can, instead of insisting on teaching high-end database theory, can in addition offer courses on practical database administration, i.e. enough so that you can become Oracle certified. After all, engineering is supposed to be a practical degree. </p>
<p>Other topics that needs to be taught within engineering programs are basic business/management skills, especially as they pertain to technology management. For example, why not have a class about startup firms, that is, the actual steps you need to do to form your own company or join somebody else’s startup (i.e. what is a business license and how to get one, what is a business plan and how to write one, what the Small Business Administration is and how it can help you, what venture capital and angel investors are and how to get funding from them, how to hire people, how to market, what stock options are and how to negotiate better a better options package for yourself, etc.) Or how about a class about how to file a patent: that is, what are the actual steps you need to do to complete a patent application, how to perform a patent search, etc. These are basic skills that many engineering students probably want to know, and the schools won’t teach them.</p>
<p>“What I find even more ironic is that many CCIE’s end up making more money than the engineers at Cisco itself who are actually designing the gear. In other words, it’s somehow more lucrative to configure and administer Cisco gear than to design the gear in the first place.”</p>
<p>That is pretty amazing and something I didn’t know. It’s completely bass-ackwards.</p>
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<p>Man, I remember I was so ****ed in undergrad when I tried to take a class that taught pretty much this and was told that Business for Engineers wasn’t considered a “non-technical elective” because we had to do some simple value calculations on one homework assignment.</p>
<p>I think there are some schools out there that are trying to incorporate these sorts of things. I know within my major in undergrad they had introduced a seminar course that covered a different business topic every year. From what I remember there was a year on business ethics, a year on skills needed to manage a project, and then one dealing with all the different careers you could go into with a degree (all three years were required to be taken). There was also a second course they started requiring my year where you had to do materials design and selection for half the course, and the other half was mostly about business skills and the sorts of “practical” things they had been leaving out in our other classes.</p>
<p>many of the engineering/science majors from prestigious Ivy schools end up taking jobs as I bankers and buy their first million dollar homes before they are 30. Perhaps this is the reason why public engineering schools rank higher … because they actually end up taking engineering jobs for lack of better options :)</p>
<p>“…taking engineering jobs for lack of better options”.</p>
<p>Here we go again.</p>