<p>(This is a partial repost from the handicap dependent thread)</p>
<p>Heres my situation.</p>
<p>A couple of years ago my mother in law gave my wife a large sum of money for estate planning/medicaid planning reasons. She is elderly and handicapped and we provide over 50% of her support and need to preserve this money to help take care of her (She is in her mid 80's)</p>
<p>It looks like niether the Elderlaw Attorney we worked with or myself looked far enough ahead when we did this to see the effects on the EFC.</p>
<p>It appears that our best option might be to put the money into a Universal Life Insurance plan that I have had for about 25 years. This was taken out before many of the rules were changed on these products in the late 80's. I would be able to put as much as I want in, but the amount of insurance must be adjusted too. This seems like it would work well financially (see below). My only question is does the "cash value" of life insurance ever count towards assets?</p>
<p>The $$$ of it are like this;</p>
<p>To put in 100K - I have to buy 500K more insurance</p>
<p>5% upfront load, but it currently pays a 5.5% return after the cost of insurance, which compounds tax free until withdrawn.</p>
<p>Money is currently in CD's for liquidity if needs and safty of principal @ 5% - about 4% after tax.</p>
<p>Money can be borrowed against the cash value at a net rate of about 2.5% - pretty cheap! Or cash value can be taken out anytime with no load at all.</p>
<p>This means the "load" would be paid back after about 3 years at the higher rate of return, the money would be sheltered for EFC purposes, I would have 500K more insurance and a good source of cheap loans.</p>
<p>Doing this would put our EFC back at about $3500 instead of $16500, so quite a difference!</p>
<p>Where do any of you see the flaws in this plan? Its always good to have other views too!</p>
<p>Can't you put it in a trust with your wife and MIL as trustees, and your MIL as beneficiary? Then it's not "your asset" (you don't own the trust), and it won't count against the EFC.</p>
<p>For the estate planning/medicaid purposes it shouldn't be in my MIL's name at all. Same type of situation as how things can affect EFC for college funding. </p>
<p>So what I need to decide is if we should put it back into her name where what she worked hard for for 70 years could get sucked up in no time at a nursing home, or figure out a way for it to be in our name and not affect EFC........hence the Life Insurance idea.</p>
<p>If a school relies solely on EFC as calculated by FAFSA, the answer is no, its not treated as an asset, but any income distributed to the beneficiary must be reported as income.<br>
See:</p>
<p>It kinda sounds like your problem is whether you can hide money from both medicare and colleges. You don't want all that hard earned money to go either for your MIL's care or for your children's education. What if everyone tried that? I'm so excited to be subsidizing your family! Also, doesn't the IRS catch "estate planning" techniques like an elderly person gifting all their money?</p>
<p>Djdietz: dont feel bad about trying to develop a strategy to maximize your kids financial aid. You didnt create the tax or financial aid systems. Thank the rocket scientists in Wahington who drafted the laws and regulations. (Thats not a good example considering that the NASA geniuses allow drunks to fly shuttles, but I digress). As long as youre not doing anything illegal, fraudulent, etc., but are only operating within the system, I wouldnt feel bad at all.</p>
<p>I've been doing estate planning for 30 years, so here's my take:</p>
<p>Return the money - it shouldn't have been given (it exceeded the gift limits)</p>
<p>There are a few medicaid friendly annuities where the interest can be turned on if she goes to a nursing home, then it's not considered an asset. You'll be the beneficiary and receive the money tax free.</p>
<p>Life insurance is NOT an investment, but clever salesmen sell it that way. When you withdraw money from the bank, do you pay them interest? Funny banking has been around for a long time.</p>
<p>So, your MIL "gave" you money that was not a gift, it was to remain "her" money" just not in her name, so that it would be hidden from view and allow her to be eligible for Medicaid benefits, and now you want to move that money so that it doesn't effect your EFC? A tangled web, it seems. I would have to agree that the life insurance agent will be the one to benefit from your plan.</p>
<p>Don't worry Jugulstor20, I dont feel guilty at all. As the estate planning attorney pointed out, when the truly wealthy figure out how hide a million or 2, is is "good planning" and capitalisim at its best. But...........when 2 old hard working people skipped their whole life to have a little something to pass on they are "scamming the system". Again the midldle class getting the short end of things.</p>
<p>One interesting thing is that another couple the same age as my MIL made almost 5 times the income, but always spent it ALL. They could have easily set enough set aside plenty for old age, but chose not to. Their only asset is their house that is worth alot. My MIL lives in a very modest house, and has some cash. Still comes up to less than the other folks house all told. A house isin't countable by medicare so they get free care. Is there a reason that my MIL shouldn't be able to preserve SOME of her assets?</p>
<p>The gift was a gift, and it isn't above the limits, but it does affect the "lifetime exemption" for estate tax. We need to preserve it becasue when she gave it, it "unqualified" her for medicaid for 3 years. SO if she did need to go in during that time, she we need to come up with it out of pocket.........thats why we need to preserve it.</p>
<p>Who do you think picks up the slack because you have a warped view that cheating the system is fine because the neighbor did it. So let's see, the taxpayers should take care of your MILs old age and subsidize your kids' way through college so there's something to pass on to you?</p>
<p>OP: Bad Idea for Universal Life Insurance. </p>
<p>If your daughter will be going to college in fall 2009, you may be too late. FAFSA will ask for current year (2008) and previous year (2007) income statements. Some schools will ask for tax returns for current year, previous year, and present year (2009). When the 1099-int/divs are reported and correlated to your tax forms, and there is a dramatic drop in interest reported and no other changes in assets/income: Where did the money go?</p>
<p>I am currently involved in care for an elderly friend. Not Medicaid. So there are funds available for her care...the fight I that have go thru at the hospital, her doctor(s), the residence facility, her care agency, the county, is unbelieveable. No one is talking to each other, and I can't get any answers from any of them. If I find one more thing, I am taking a lawyer.-I have already demanded that they have THEIR lawyer present when they talk to me-I get a blank stare and silence from them wondering why THEY should have a lawyer present!</p>
<h1>9.
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when the truly wealthy figure out how hide a million or 2, is is "good planning" and capitalisim at its best
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</h1>
<p>They already have figured it out. That's why there are estate planning lawyers. Bribes to legislators, earmarks, complicated tax laws, FAFSA, Stafford Loans, subprime loans, and loosing legislator-turned lobbyists.</p>
<p>If the OP has an old UL policy and dumps in more cash to the cash value, the agent will make $0. If he adds some death benefit, the agent would recieve a commission on the target premium, but not much, if anything on the excess dump in, so the agent is not making a huge commission on it.</p>
<p>Be sure to ask to review the proposed illustration and check out the surrender charge with the money going in, does that go up at all due to the new face amount being added. be sure you know what the limits are on accessing the money, newer policies have 20 year elimination of surrender charge, so that could cost you if you need the money sooner. If you can FIFO the cash value you are fine.</p>
<p>It is very common for elderly people to be advised to gift a large sum off assets so they would have medicaid available, ethical, I am not debating that, though the 3 year rule would seem to show that our govt has enacted the gifting rules with full realisation as to how people might use it. </p>
<p>There are some places where life insurance is an excellent extate planning vehicle, so don't dump on it across the board. Especially pre 1987 UL policies.</p>
<p>The mention of interest income disappearing is a good one. Also, if this happened a "couple of years ago" you are near to the end of the three year rule, so probably safe to put the money out of reach to pay Gma's extra expenses later.</p>