<p>Alexa…I wish more kids would realize that rejection IS coming, no matter how talented you are. Sure rejections can sting but if you realistically expect them, you should not get bent out of shape over them. Like you say, it is what it is. Students and their parents need to be realistic. If a program is taking 4%, there are more than 4% who have what it takes to get in. The likelihood of being chosen is not that great. Build a realistic list of colleges that should yield some results given the nature of selective admissions. </p>
<p>CalMTMom…just to clarify…it is SoozieVT, not sooviet (that’s OK, I understand). When I signed up for CC back in 2002, and entered my member name, SoozieVT, it appeared on the site in all lower case and many have written it as sooviet. My name is Susan/Susie/Suzy and I live in Vermont, thus the VT. OK, back to our regularly scheduled thread…LOL…
I think we both agree that college is not just job training. I sent my kids to college for the four year experience they had while there, as well as the education they received that should help them succeed as adults. When someone else said to why bother if you can get cast without a degree…well, the person without a degree may get cast but if they don’t, they won’t have the same job opportunities that someone with a degree will have. They also won’t be an educated person. Our kids got a college education. There are many things they can do with it and it doesn’t have to relate to their major. I do believe, however, that both my kids will be working in their respective fields of interest in some capacity. So far, my MT kid who is out of college is working in theater. I could not be more pleased that she is carving out a life in the performing arts and pursuing many things (which is good to do since each thing is so chancy and all her eggs are not in one basket) and she is also expected to support herself and she is doing that. She loved her education and as a parent, nothing could make us happier than that our kids loved their college experiences. Isn’t that what it is about?</p>
<p>I think it’s possible to perceive any selection process as flawed from the vantage of someone who wants the spot and has absolutely no control over the outcome or from the assumption that the (paying) parents are purchasing an opportunity for development of our children. But at the same time, we’re not interested in purchasing an “open enrollment” program!!! In reality, the process is more like DaVinci deciding who he wants as an apprentice, and the right to apprentice is his discretion. We’re paying for the opportunity for consideration by people who are well-known to have the capacity to educate an apprentice. </p>
<p>But the premise of this thread has been that the selection process at MT and Music schools is truly a “10 minute and out” decision, completely disregarding the ultimate influence of the student’s repertoire, in some cases academic performance, resume and recommendations.</p>
<p>The point is that it is not. It is every bit as well considered as entrance to any other specialized honors or professional program. In many cases, the audition is the reality check – one that’s not available to doctors, lawyers or teachers ;)</p>
<p>The measure of a successful BFA program has nothing to do with the future “employment” of the student and everything to do with the experience of life and its expression the student can subsequently access. The same is true of most liberal arts degree programs, but we as a society keep making it about “jobs” instead of “human development.” But in reality, the “jobs” come from the “human development” and I’ll take a developed human as an employee any day over the vocationally “trained.”</p>
<p>At this very moment, my recent BFA grad is involved in 8 separate endeavors, including jobs. All are in theater and music. When I think over the eight things, at least seven of them would not have been possible without her degree. The eighth endeavor is that she is a singer/songwriter who is booking regular gigs in NYC. That last one could be done without a college degree, although she is a far better singer with her college training than she was before it. As well, she has a more mature business sense to go about booking these gigs and creating demos and such. But the 7 other theater/music things would definitely not have happened without her degree. I won’t bother to name them all.</p>
<p>I was told that many mt applicants are allowed to go through the dance and acting and singing audition parts when many could be eliminated in two minutes simply by singing scales. When a student is being appraised by a panel of music professors, they can spot
and separate inate ability, training and musicality and getting the nod from them is tough.
I don’t think the music part is as subjective as a lot of applicants think.</p>
<p>After the 5 to 10 minutes with you, they know if they want you or not. If you have ever been on the other side of the audition table, you’d understand.</p>
<p>Roster Make Up will also play an important part of the selection process. For example you can’t have a successful football team with 11 or 22 quarterbacks. You need people to catch or run the ball, block, etc. </p>
<p>For MT the first and probably the most important cut is girl/boy ratio. Then strong voice/dance/act attributes. Kids that can look younger or older. Beside a versatile incoming class a school will consider their entire student body. The better the mix the more robust the program will be.</p>
<p>RE: roster: It’s funny, but when I look at photos of my D’s friends from her program I can imagine who the ingenues are, who the “leading men” are and who the character actors are, etc. There are the younger looking girls and the ones who can play their mothers. There are an assortment of blondes and brunettes. All body types, etc. And as more of the kids are being cast in actuality, they are being cast to the type they seem to represent. So, yes, it is not just talent but a balance of voice types and character types, too.</p>
<p>I have been on vacation, and got “bogged down” in the middle of all these copious posts. But here are my two cents if anyone is still listening…</p>
<p>*You send your resume (which in my S’s case held almost 20 (mostly) leading roles in school and community theatre which is more than anyone else we know personally. That tells about your abilities and training. </p>
<p>*You send recommendations from people who have directed you. That speaks to your commitment, attitude, raw talent, and “teach-ability”, especially when you have been re-cast by the same directors.</p>
<p>*You send your grades and activities, which show an ability to manage your time during the busy schedule you will have as an actor.</p>
<p>*You send your essays which show if you are well-spoken and have received an education that will translate well to the stage and your role (as some have said…you can’t act certain roles if you don’t know your history, etc.)</p>
<p>This is all before you hit the door of the audition room. That is your “pre-screening”. As a person who has cast several shows (albeit on a much more humble scale), I know I can see potential within a very few minutes. </p>
<p>One important factor I haven’t heard a lot but I think is huge: some kids do audition very well, but in my experience, some of those same kids prove themselves to be very uncoachable. Because they have trained “with the best” or “their whole lives”, they feel they know even more than the director and are hard to direct. I think the college boards are much more interested (and aware) of POTENTIAL than we are all giving them credit for.</p>
<p>One other thing…we just returned from a national show choir competition. Our choir has had a phenomenal year (grand champs and 1st runner ups wherever we have gone. The buzz has been amazing. </p>
<p>Not to say that the other groups at this national competition weren’t terrific, they were. But we ended up 4th overall, even tho our kids turned in a wonderful, energetic, and really unique performance that have wowed all the judges and crowds we’ve been in front of all year. In the end, we knew that they had done their best show, and it was up to the judges’ opinions.</p>
<p>While their best had been very successful everywhere else, arts are a matter of taste and opinion…one judge thinks your are just awesome, and another is left cold…does that make your performance any less wonderful? Ask any painter who wasn’t appreciated until after his time!</p>
<p>My thought process was just like BunkerX. My son was very new to theatre - and yet he wanted to dedicate his life to this - as a mother of a boy you think about your son being able to provide for a family (sexist, I know, but true) - so we needed someone with high credentials to say yes, go for it! We got that when he was accepted to CCM. However, I am not that foolish to think that acceptance to CCM will make him a star, nor do I think it’s the only way to get the big roles. As stated in one of the books suggested by this web page, making it big in this industry is like being elected a Senator of the United States.</p>
<p>As to the audition process: All of our kids have been looked at in every way possible - grades, talent, interest, work ethics. The kids have danced, acted, sung and answered questions. The parents showed support by driving or flying them all over this wonderful country. These schools have more to base their decisions on than the law schools that I applied to in the 80’s.</p>
<p>Finally - face it - it’s not up to us to decide what the audition process will be. We are the ones knocking on the doors…they didn’t seek us out. What works for them will have to be good enough.</p>
<p>I’ve been a member for 1 hour and have learned much from reading the posted question. My child will be attending the auditions in Chicago. Both of us will be better prepared.</p>
<p>I’ve been popping in and out reading many of the interesting and thought provoking comments that have been made but have been too busy with work to jump in until now. Hopefully, I am not repeating prior comments.</p>
<p>I am of the view that the audition process is probably the fairest way to determine admission to a BFA program. Some schools may run their auditions in a manner that is deemed preferable to another’s but in the end, the audition gives every student an equal opportunity to demonstrate what they have. If you think about it, what other programs other than performing and fine arts give a student the opportunity to personally demonstrate face to face with departmental representatives their individual merits for admission. While interviews, of course, are a part of the admissions process at many traditional schools, often they are given little weight compared to other admissions materials and typically are conducted by an admission office rep, not the professors who will be teaching the major to which a student applies. Conversely, the auditions are conducted by those who teach the program and who have the opportunity to directly evaluate a student’s fit for the program rather than relying upon the conclusions of someone from outside of the department. The student becomes far more than just the gpa and sat metrics on a piece of paper; the impressions formed arise out of first hand observations of the “work process” indigenous to the program rather than relying solely on a stranger’s comments on a recommendation form (and even more so where the audition is interactive with adjustments and direction given).</p>
<p>More over, an audition in many ways is a great “equalizer”. Students can’t control how they may be cast in school shows and for what reasons (including the politics of favoritism that exist at many high schools), can’t control which shows are staged and the roles which are available, can’t have the performance tailored to their individual strengths and preferences, can’t control the production values. A student’s performance resume doesn’t really tell anything about a student’s abilities, it is really only a reflection of level of involvement. An audition is, in contrast, a 1 person show where the student has control over the song, the monologue, and the presentation. Regardless of how you have been cast in high school or the opportunities you have had, the audition is the opportunity to show the best of what you have to offer, as determined by you. Taken in conjunction with all the other materials that get submitted as part of the application process, I suspect that the decision committees at most BFA programs have a much more complete understanding of whether the student is a good match for the program than the admissions committee has at a “traditional” school.</p>
<p>It’s interesting to get the “contrarian’s” perspective on reject and steer into something else or accept and know you have something/it or you wouldn’t have been accepted. My child will be auditioning this coming February and this has given us another school of thought.</p>
<p>But one closing point: I still firmly believe that making a 4 year decision after a 10 minute audition is a flawed process. They should at least do a callback or look at some videos or something. </p>
<p>I really do not think this discussion was intended to really go anywhere. I found it to be one of those discussions that always has a"but" in it. My take is the S or D did not get a call back or was rejected from a program/s. </p>
<p>Of course the system is not perfect. No system in this great world of ours is. Of course getting a dgree does not gurantee a job, of course we would all lvoe for colleges to spend hours and hours with our child, of course we want to be THE LEAD on BROADWAY…of course…of course. But this is life…it is what it is. Our kids will face rejection in many forms and yes one of them will be for college.</p>
<p>I just don’t feel if my child has a bad experience auditioning or doesn’t get into a program, that it is the systems fault. Auditioning is a skill in itself.
Although I enjoyed hearing most of the opinions and thoughts on the topic, I really don’t think</p>
<p>WhyWhy QUOTE:“But one closing point: I still firmly believe that making a 4 year decision after a 10 minute audition is a flawed process. They should at least do a callback or look at some videos or something.” </p>
<p>I really do not think this discussion was intended to really go anywhere. I found it to be one of those discussions that always has a “but” in it. My take is the S or D did not get a call back or was rejected from a program/s. </p>
<p>Of course the system is not perfect. No system in this great world of ours is. Of course getting a degree does not guarantee a job, of course we would all love for colleges to spend hours and hours with our child, of course we want our son or daughter to be THE LEAD on BROADWAY…of course…of course. But this is life…it is what it is. Our kids will face rejection in many forms and yes one of them will be for college.</p>
<p>I just don’t feel if my child has a bad experience auditioning or doesn’t get into a program, that it is the systems fault. Auditioning is a skill in itself.</p>
<p>I enjoyed reading the opinions and thoughts of others. After reading all the post from WhyWhy, I think what I heard is a very frustrated parent who S or D was having a difficult time with the process and not getting the results wanted, which translated into the circular discussion of “buts”.</p>
<p>I could be totally wrong, but that is my take on this “interesting?” topic. For what it’s worth… :D</p>
<p>Startles and all, thank you for the feedback. I think many of you have missed my main points so I ask you to please go back and read my posts carefully before criticizing what I have written. Some posts are now speculating about my personal motivation for asking these questions, so I will just point out again (as I stated before) that this was intended to be a discussion with a goal to improve the MT admission process in the future. I know that some of my questions were controversial because they put in doubt a process in which many people have invested an incredible amount of time and money. I wonder if these people are so invested (financially and emotionally) in this process that they are not able to look at the issues objectively anymore. However, I must point out that with so many passionate longwinded responses to my questions, I wonder if deep down inside people know that my posts may be on to something :-)</p>
<p>“If we are not willing to even contemplate that a process may need to change nothing will ever improve.” WhyWhy, 2010</p>
<p>WhyWhy…most of us who are responding are parents and students, not the program people. And so all of us are saying that we don’t think the system is in need of a big fix. </p>
<p>I don’t know WHY the PROGRAMS would change the admissions process unless THEY find they are having problems with it or if they feel they are not getting the talent they desire. Do you think they are not getting the talent? Sure… very talented people will be rejected in a highly competitive process, talent who are worthy and qualified (which explains why a kid gets into, for example, UMich and not Penn State). But do you really feel they have chosen untalented kids? While there could be a few mistakes made, for the most part, I have seen a ton of talented kids who are in very selective BFA programs and who have graduated from them and a LOT of them are extremely talented (many were before they entered). Why do you think the programs themselves would want to change the system if they are already getting the talent they desire?? They can pick who they want and they have and don’t seem to be complaining. </p>
<p>When you say the process needs to improve and so it should be looked at, that only makes sense if the colleges themselves feel it isn’t working for them. </p>
<p>It seems to me that as a parent, YOU believe it is not working well, and I respect that as your opinion, but I don’t see it changing unless it is not working for the programs and they are not getting the desired talent or types of students they seek. </p>
<p>You say they are not able to look at it objectively but I’m saying that I haven’t heard programs complaining that they are having a problem. If they were, then they’d have to examine it and find new solutions. I don’t even see the parents and students here thinking it is a problem. </p>
<p>I just am curious if you think that the students who they accept and who are graduating from these programs are not all that talented? </p>
<p>You mention that not all end up starring on Broadway and that’s right. VERY few will ever do that, no matter if they are the MOST talented actors on the planet. Some luck is involved in getting on Bdway and many many talented graduates won’t ever appear there. But that doesn’t mean they weren’t good enough to be on Broadway. If they have talent, they likely will have a good chance to be a working actor, which is what it is about.</p>
<p>PS:
I gather that was a mistake in spelling but truthfully these degrees are a good BUY in my view. :D</p>