@Gator88NE - D is finding out what places she can take CHEM this summer. Should know next week when she meets with her advisor.
I would not assume the grading curve is toughest at the most highly selective colleges. For example, the median GPA in Harvard’s senior survey is ~3.8. >99% of students reported a 3.0+ GPA. The most common grade is a an A in pre-med classes at many high selective private colleges. In contrast, at some less selective colleges, the most common grade is a C in pre-med classes with very few getting A’s, and some have average cumulative GPAs below 3.0 . Instead I’d expect some students would find it easier to get A’s at the more selective college and some at the less selective college. There are a variety of contributing factors. Some students may get pushed to new heights when surrounding by classmates doing amazing things, while some may struggle if they are not among the big fish in the class. Some students thrive in a more collaborative atmosphere, while others thrive in a more competitive atmosphere. Some students do better when a large portion of classmates/friends are pre-med, while some do not.
There are also differences in grade inflation between specific selective colleges, as well is between specific majors and specific professors at the same college. A student who is considering a post-grad program that requires a high GPA might consider degree of grade deflation/inflation when choosing a college, but I’d expect there would be many far more influential and important criteria as well, which would be the primary components of the decision. The undergraduate college can also influence numerous aspects of grad school admission besides just GPA. For example, you might learn the material better at a college with more rigorous classes, which influences MCAT score, med school preparedness, and various other aspects. Some colleges have easier/better research opportunities or opportunities for interacting with professors. Some have better med school application advising. Some colleges are big on discouraging kids from applying unless they have a high chance of acceptance. Some make it easier to change majors, or change plans, which is extremely common among all college students, regardless of post-grad plans.
The paper at https://ecommons.luc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2293&context=luc_diss is one of the few I’ve seen that tries to analyze how undergraduate college attended influences med school admissions. The table below shows the calculated relative influence of different factors in number of med school acceptances. The higher the odds ratio, the more influence. An odds ratio of 1.0 means no influence. An odds ratio of 2.0+ suggests a strong influence. The comparison is in reference to the missing variable. In short the analyses suggest that GPA/MCAT stats are the most important factor, and URM status is also influential. Kids attending more selective colleges appear to have statistically significantly better results than similar stat/race kids from less selective colleges. However, the reasons for that difference likely relates to sending out more applications and favoring more selective med schools. Women also tend to have slightly better results for less clear reasons.
Among students with GPA/MCAT stats, similar race, and similar other characteristics students attending “more selective” colleges with at least 80th percentile test scores averaged a slightly larger number of med school acceptances than students attending less selective colleges. The primary reason for the larger number of acceptances is likely that the students attending more selective colleges averaged more applications. The more selective college kids averaged 16 applications, while the others averaged 9-10. Perhaps better med school at more selective colleges contributes to kids at the more selective colleges sending a larger number of applications and as such getting more acceptances.
Odds Ratio for Number Of Med School Acceptances
Academic Index* – 3.2
Black – 2.4
Hispanic – 1.9
Female – 1.3
Private College – 1.2
MS Degree – 1.08
College with 1-10k students – 0.93
Asian – 0.87
College with <20th percentile scores – 0.85
College with <1000 students – 0.83
College with 20th-80th percentile scores – 0.81
*Academic Index is combination of science GPA, overall GPA, and MCAT score.
There were more significant differences in prediction of matriculating to a very highly selective medical school, rather being accepted to any medical school. Stats appear to be more critical for matriculating to highly selective med school, and URM status appears to have more of an influence. The analysis suggests that attending a more selective college for benefit may offer a benefit. However, I suspect that apparent benefit primarily relates to kids attending a more selective college for undergrad being more likely to favor and apply to the most highly ranked medical schools.
Odds Ratio for Attending Very Highly Selective Medical School
Academic Index* – 11.2
Black – 4.6
Hispanic – 2.8
Female – 1.3
Private College – 1.2
College with <1000 students – 1.12
MS Degree – 1.03
Asian – 0.97
College with 1-10k students – ~0.7
College with <20th percentile scores – 0.6
College with 20th-80th percentile scores – 0.5
*Academic Index is combination of science GPA, overall GPA, and MCAT score.
Did I miss something @Data10
The OP’s kid is interested in becoming a physical therapist, not a doctor. Unless I missed something, she isn’t applying to medical school. She will be applying to DPT programs.
DPT programs are competitive for admissions as they are doctoral level programs. But this doesn’t mean that the name of your undergrad school will have an impact on your admission potential.
This student should start looking on the physical therapy association website for accredited DPT programs. There is a range from highly competitive to less competitive. Start researching programs. Shadow some PTs. Talk to them about DPT programs.
You may have missed the other posts in the thread. One of the posts I replied to and quoted stated “A very bright kid that goes to a lower ranked, less academic school and gets a top MCAT score with near perfect grades and lots of research/shadowing may get into med school.” Another I quoted mentioned grad school in general, and the 3rd mentioned pre-med. The thread comments have not been specific to only DPT programs. That said, a similar principle applies to the majority of my comments for DPT programs.
Can OP’s D articulate why PT? Does she know enough about it to be committed to her “grown up” career right now? I know a bunch of young people who thought they’d be icing shoulders for the Giants or jetting off the Olympics to work with skiers with a knee injury. The reality of their local nursing home, helping bedridden patients lift their arms an inch at a time (a much more likely outcome, given the demand for PT’s to work with the elderly, vs. the demand for PT’s to work with the NFL) got them rethinking their career goals.
Original poster here. D has a good idea she wants to do PT. She had 80 hours of shadow work in High School and then worked for pay part time (they wanted to keep her on). So that was a good enough exposure IMO. Things can change but you really don’t have much time to think about it as classes need to be taken early to keep pace to the track.
PT schools may care whether she took her science classes at a 4-year or CC.
@Data10, too schools almost certainly offer better pre-med advising and more resources in general, so that may explain the slight bump.
@blossom See it all the time. As a freshman advisor, every year, I’ve got athletes who want to be PTs to work with athletes. (Also have nursing-interest students who won’t have to spend any time bedside as they plan on becoming NPs immediately, but that’s another thread).
If rigor of the undergrad doesn’t matter than how come top medical programs have such a high percentage of admits from those schools?
Could you respond to post 29.
Hi all: I’ve been lurking here for awhile while researching merit funding for my D21. First off, thanks so much to all the long-time posters like @thumper1 , @mom2collegekids, @ucbalumnus, and @blossom, from whom I’ve learned so much.
However, I’m also a physician on the admissions commitee for my highly-ranked state medical school, so I finally had to join CC and weigh in after reading all the misconceptions that many folks have about “getting in”.
So while I can’t speak for private schools, I can tell you that undergrad school is NOWHERE on the very long list of criteria by which we judge our applicants. It’s true that the core science courses and degree can’t be from a CC, but otherwise, the prestige or rank of the undergrad school truly DOESN’T MATTER. The MCAT score is the great equalizer that tells us everything we know about an applicant’s fitness for the rigors or medicine. And since the primary mission of each every state medical school is to produce future doctors who are likely to remain in the state to care for their respective citizens, we care much more about state residency than where someone did their undergrad. (Since this is obviously not the case for private medical schools, they likely have different admissions criteria).
I believe that graduating from a highly selective undergrad actually places candidates at a disadvantage because so many of them are weeded out long before they reach the application stage. I was one of only two Ivy grads in my entire medical school class at the same state medical school where I now interview. The vast majority of my classmates came from our state flagship or lower ranked schools. Now I’m seeing the same general distribution of undergrad ‘prestige’ again a generation later in the interview process.
OTOH, the vast majority of my Ivy undergrad classmates who started out as pre-meds washed out after that first ‘C’ in bio, chem, or physics since the competition was so cut-throat there. Which is my, for my own kids, we’re chasing merit at T20-50 schools rather than aiming for the tippy tops. The crushing debt of physicians is real. But that’s a topic for another thread :).
The most selective colleges start with the strongest students to begin with.
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“top medical programs” is an interesting characterization. Outside of a handful of names that are famous for being famous, irl med schools are pretty flat ranking-wise, with the biggest differentiation being those with a strong emphasis on research v practice. Those famous names famously draw a large % of their intake from their own undergrads- as do non-famous names.
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correlation ≠ causation.
Ambitious, high achieving students aim for, and get into, name schools. They typically remain ambitious and high achieving students and aim for, and get into, name medical schools. But if you look at the total list of where students come from, dozens of colleges are represented, lots of them from well outside the top 50.
And for the OP, whose real concern is whether UF will help or hurt his daughter’s chances of getting into a PT program, a lot of this is pretty esoteric.
@UpNorth2019, thank you for your post. Frontline info for the win 
Re: #29
This question is complicated and there is no straight-forward answer, but it appears to correlate with the fact that most students who attend elite universities are financially advantaged. Students do not have to work during summers or during the school year so have the time available to amass the expected volunteer pre-med ECs. Students have the financial resources to pay for tutoring, to pay for MCAT prep courses, to pay for professional packaging of their application, to pay to apply to 30 or 40 medical schools, to pay for interview travel, etc. Additionally elite undergrads have grade inflation and so graduates of these schools tend to have higher GPAs. Students attending elite universities have better test-taking skills so tend to score higher on the MCAT. (Top med schools now have MEDIAN MCAT scores at or above the 99th percentile.)
Medicine has a what’s called a “pipeline” problem. It’s not getting students from lower SES classes because it’s simply to expensive for them to compete.
I’m not on a medical school admissions committee, but a co-worker is a member of the admissions committee of our state’s medical school. She has told me that they use a point system for scoring applicants, and they are authorized to award addition points based upon the selectivity of the undergraduate school of the applicant. So maybe each state does things differently-I imagine each school in each state does things differently-but this is the case for this medical school in our state.
I’m willing to bet that the selectivity points awarded are minor when compared to the other factors an applicant gets points for.
Also–this was written by someone who is med school adcomm
http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/22128038#Comment_22128038
It’s possible that certain state schools prefer local residents. I know Texas does. However, i don’t get why any medical school or post-graduate program not look favourably at consistent high achievers from rigorous undergrad programs. As far as numbers go, obviously yo’ll see more students from large local public universities in local medical schools. Elite colleges admit smaller number to begin with, not as many take pre-med, ones who pursue medicine end up all over the country.
Not just prefer, preferential enrollment of state residents is frequently required by state statues. By law, in TX, 90% of all med school seats must go to state residents. My state has a similar requirement.
Each individual medical school has a mission to fulfill. Different med school have different purposes–to provide physicians for medically underserved regions or populations, to train academic leaders in medicine, to become the next generation of medical researchers, etc. If a high achieving student from an elite undergrad doesn’t meet the mission criteria, then that school isn’t going to accept them no matter what name appears on their diploma.