Does your undergrad really matter if you plan on being a doctor or lawyer?

Parents Forum
21

<p>My Yale classmate turned down a big scholarship (free ride) at U Illinois. She went there for med school instead. In hindsight, she told me she wished she’d done it in reverse: gone to U of I for college and yale for med. Her debt situation was the primary reason for this regret.</p>

<p>I concur with what many others have said. Attain to a great flagship public, minimalize debt, crank your GPA (which is easier at a college you’ll love) and MCATs, have more money at hand for pricey med school. Best of luck to you</p>

22

<p>

</p>

<p>Guys. Everyone needs to CHILL. Go open your phone book and look at the list of doctors who are in there. Do you think that everyone in there went to the tippy top schools in the nation? Of course not. The majority of them went to state flagships or “average” colleges and then went into medical school. During medical school, the undergrads from Harvard sit next to the undergrads from State Flagship and the undergrads from Second-Tier Private College and they all go through the same training together.</p>

<p>And you guys have to chill on the importance of “getting into Harvard or JHU med schools.” Med schools is one of the great levelers. The difference in quality between the top and bottom isn’t all that great, and residencies serve as a further levelers. If you want to go into private practice, your income will be determined by how well you manage your business. It’s not as though Blue Cross Blue Shield or Aetna is going to look at a Harvard med school degree and say, “Oh, wow! Let’s reimburse you more for that procedure!” </p>

<p>Law school is different … there is more “social signaling” from top law schools … But not medicine. Really, people who go to State Flagship U and State Flagship Med School go into practice with people who go to Elite U and Elite Med School all the time, and they do exactly the same thing and make exactly the same amount of money.</p>

<p>There is a huge CC naivete that Harvard, JHU etc med schools “buy” so many more opportunities than other med schools. Only if your goal is academic medicine is that the case.</p>

23

<br>

<br>

<p>But the defining line seems to be second-tier privates (and publics)…and lower than that could be risky unless your undergrad school has a rep for being strong in sciences.</p>

<p>When I was at UCI…the common wisdom was that if you wanted to go to med school, you’d better go to a UC (if going public) rather than a Cal State. That may be different now since a few of the Cal States have become more elite (the Cal Polys, CSUF, CSULB, & CSUSD) - and those schools have high or mid-tier rankings now.</p>

24

<p>Where will you be most likely to maximize your college experience and LEARN? Do you need to be challenged by your peers, or are you OK with not finding your “tribe” to the second or third year of college when you are in more advanced courses in your major? Will you be side-tracked by a big party or Greek scene? Do you need hands-on attention from profs to develop certain skills (such as critical thinking, writing etc)?</p>

25

<p>The goal of Harvard med school is a silly one for MOST students- especially students who aren’t even in college yet. Most future doctors would not be well-served by choosing that particular med school, even if they could be admitted. See Pizzagirl’s post above.</p>

26

<p>Yes. It makes a difference. You will be judged similarly to your undergrad application:</p>

<p>GPA, MCATS/LSATS, strength of schedule, rank in class; essays, etc</p>

<p>Your GPA and your rank-in-class will be weighted depending on how challenging an undergrand program you tackled. UGA will be viewed favorably – the other one, not so much. (See JABLALF Post #12).</p>

27

<p>

</p>

<p>Without knowing the base rate (e.g. how many students from each of the above schools applied to Harvard Law), the numbers above aren’t so informative. </p>

<p>On a brighter note, it’s very important to remember that the 1650 students in Harvard Law School in the 09-10 year came from 268 undergraduates schools: </p>

<p>[Undergraduate</a> Colleges](<a href=“http://www.law.harvard.edu/prospective/jd/apply/undergrads.html]Undergraduate”>http://www.law.harvard.edu/prospective/jd/apply/undergrads.html)</p>

28

<p>At my HS, the wealthiest among the student body would be considered “upper middle class” at best…in retrospect, my family was decidedly “lower middle class” but I didn’t know it at the time. We didn’t have a huge percentage going to college, and of the class of 800+, I think I could count on one hand the students who went to a private college. Most went to a state school and were glad to be there.</p>

<p>Catching up with people on Facebook, I’m amazed at the great graduate schools (including Harvard Med) that some of these students attended.</p>

29

<p>

</p>

<p>Exactly. What’s the reason / basis for wanting to get into Harvard Med School compared to any other given Med School? They all feed into the same residencies and residencies are where your opportunities are determined. If it’s maximizing income, as I said upthread, insurance companies don’t reimburse you better if you went to Harvard Med School. It’s not like law, where there is a definite hierarchy and certain law schools “buy you” access to certain types of jobs. Med school is actually quite unhierarchical. And in the medical community, the guy-who-does-great-things out of Ohio State Medical School is just as well regarded as the guy-who-does-great-things out of Harvard Medical School.</p>

30

<p>

</p>

<p>If the 2007 numbers haven’t changed much (they haven’t), the top five colleges (HYPS + Penn) made up over 1/3 of the class, and the next eight (rest of the Ivies, Duke, Georgetown, and top two UCs) made up about 20%. So the other 255 undergraduate schools contributed fewer than 800 students, total, for an average of 3 per college, or one student/year to HLS. And what do you think would happen if we looked at the top 25 feeders to Harvard Law, rather than just the top 13? We would be looking at 245 colleges that, on average, send one student to Harvard Law every other year.</p>

<p>Does your undergraduate institution matter if you want to go to Harvard Law School? You bet it does. Does it matter absolutely? Are you hopeless if you didn’t go to a top-25 something? Of course not. </p>

<p>I didn’t go to Harvard Law School, but I knew a lot of people who did, and the three students in my year who had the most respect of their peers came from Northwestern, Albion College, and Rice, none of which are on that top-13 list, and only one of which would be in the top 25. My Stanford Law School class was somewhat dominated by HYPS, although the student with the best grades came from the University of Missouri. The big stars from the class behind me, however, got their undergraduate degrees at the Universities of Texas and Arizona, and the person who has had the flashiest career went to the University of New Hampshire.</p>

31

<p>That “Colleges that Change Lives” book gives stats for med school admission and some of them are pretty impressive. Some of the small colleges give nice merit money. We are in a Hopkins HMO, so all of our doctors are employed by Hopkins. I always ask where they went to school because I am nosy, and most of them did undergrad or med school at a state school. Our pediatrician is Harvard undergrad; I don’t know where she went to med school.</p>

32

<p>

</p>

<p>Right, but there is also a like-attracts-like. The kid who goes to State Flagship looks around and sees that people who go to State Flagship do just fine, so he doesn’t necessarily need or want to look at the Ivies. The kid who goes to the Ivies or other elite undergrad is already “swimming in that pond” and those schools are therefore more top of mind for him to apply to in the first place.</p>

<p>Medicine and law are two completely different animals in terms of the whole prestige-of-school thing; they can’t even be compared, at all.</p>

33

<p>Agreed re difference between medicine and law.</p>

34

<p>My son in law went to Loyola-New Orleans undergrad (merit scholarship). Medical school in-state at a Texas school. Now in a prestigious residency program. He said there are a lot of factors to consider when choosing a medical school (besides simply getting in somewhere, which is a huge one). You want to minimize your debt because it is stupid to come out with mega-debt when you can limit it to just huge debt. Also, it is good to be at a school where a lot of things are happening at the hospitals. This makes a large metropolitan area actually better than some of the “prestigious” universities. You simply see more stuff. I went to his med school graduation and studied the program to look at undergrad schools AND residency programs the new-docs were heading for. There was absolutely NO correlation between undergrad institution and where they were going for residency. There were docs coming from non-flagship state schools going to programs that accepted two applicants from the entire country. </p>

<p>Law- different deal entirely.</p>

35

<p>I agree with pizzagirl and momofwildchild above, who offer wise comments.</p>

<p>If you qualify for financial aid, then you can apply to go wherever the financial aid picture is good, not just where the costs are less. I would pick a school for undergrad for as many reasons as possible, including location, academics, social culture, and vibe, not just advertised cost, in case financial aid makes certain schools more possible on the undergrad level.</p>

<p>I have noticed that many of our favorite doctors, most of whom are quite esteemed and prominent at places like MGH, did not go to elite undergrad colleges, or, for that matter, elite medical schools. If one’s goal in going into medicine is to help people (as opposed to simply looking for prestige) then there are many satisfactory paths to that end.</p>

<p>I would ask why you want to go to med or law school (two careers that are actually quite different). I don’t want to offend you, but you are young, and if you do some exploring in your first year or two of college, who knows what you will want to do? I have seen this change happen with many kids I know.</p>

<p>There are little kids who want to be policemen and firemen, and there are high school kids who want to be doctors and lawyers, but the real adult working world is quite complex and offers many opportunities that don’t fit neat categories. A good bit of wandering is needed to find one’s niche, and sometimes the path of medicine or law is just right, sometimes not: but in either case, maybe that goal should be examined critically before it becomes a commitment.</p>

<p>So I also would not define your whole life with the prospect of med or law school, as yet. Go to the college where you will learn the most and be happiest, as long as it is affordable in the present.</p>

36

<p>

</p>

<p>Yes. Strongly agree with this.</p>

37

<p>I think the current financial climate mitagates a different view for this year’s HS grad. If you plan on research/lab experience it may be negatively impacted by current budgets.</p>

<p>What may “appear” as the cheaper UG solution on the surface this year may not translate into a less expense UG degree due to not being able to complete the degree in 4 years (ie the situation in Cali). </p>

<p>I’m a PA resident. Our “flagship” schools (Penn State, Pitt) are not true state institutions. They cost more and receive less state financial support then our “true” state schools (most of which are 3rd & 4th tier). One of our true state schools released a University wide memo last week detailing the budget & recapping the effects of last years budget. Upon inquery I learned these cuts are directly impacting the number of lab asst. in one department.</p>

<p>ASK QUESTIONS directly to Unviersity departments about the exact areas the budget cuts are effecting. </p>

<p>Of course past experince comes into play, but any current High School MUST realize this is a different climate.</p>

38

<p>Even if we find great data suggesting one is more likely to get into a particular profession or graduate program when coming from a particular undergraduate college, we still would need to differentiate what is going on: is it the SCHOOL or the STUDENT. It’s difficult to separate these factors. The current study that was referenced in a recent NYTimes article suggests its the student NOT the school that makes the difference (the same students that got into HYPS but chose to go to State did as well later on as those that chose HYPS). In other words, outstanding highschool students that get offers to go to HYPs turn out to be outstanding undergraduates who get offers to graduate schools and programs (no matter where they graduated from).</p>

39

<p>Starbright</p>

<p>I don’t 100% buy into “it is the Student.”</p>

<p>Coming from low middle class where college is seldom the course I believe it is extremely difficult for a student alone to navigate. Of course, the student must be motivated, but motivation without support and experienced guidance does not yield successful results. The UG choice and services available at the UG can really have an effect on these types of students.</p>

40

<p>In defense of better known medical schools… :slight_smile: the Duke match lists are more impressive the the UNC match lists in terms of the most sought after specialties, and the Harvard match lists are more impressive the Duke’s. Of course, if you don’t care about those specialties, it doesn’t make any difference.</p>