Doing A Complete Degree Abroad?

Applying to College
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<p>Good day, everyone. I have a few questions about studying for a degree abroad. First, let me provide some background information.</p>

<p>I graduated in May with a Bachelor of Arts degree from a public university here in the United States (I imagine it goes without saying, but I am an American citizen). I couldn't decide what I wanted to do with my life during college and tried a number of different majors. I eventually ended up graduating after five years with a somewhat silly humanities degree. To quote Malcolm Gladwell, my undergraduate studies were not "intellectually fruitful" and I left with just over a 3.1 GPA. Because of this, I suspect my options for any sort of degree program are quite slim but I still have hope of being admitted somewhere. Anyway, after actively searching since January, I've been unable to secure employment with my (admittedly pretty useless) low GPA degree. At this point, I think my only option is to go back to school and complete a serious/real degree.</p>

<p>Now to the point of this post! :D</p>

<p>I'm interested in perhaps doing my next degree abroad. Why, you ask? Well, honestly, I'd just like a change. I'd also like to live in a different culture for a while. I've travelled enough to realize that there is more to the world than just the United States and I'd like to experience it for a bit, while also helping my professional future.</p>

<p>So far, I've only looked at studying in the United Kingdom. I've discovered that the British higher education system is quite different than the American system. Degree programs appear to be much more specialized and I still can't wrap my head around the UK degree classification scheme (first class, second class, etc. - Is there a standardized conversion to an American GPA?). How much would one expect to spend for total expenses (tuition, cost of living, everything) per year of study? If I applied for an undergraduate program, would I have to take some sort of test (like the US SAT) or would having a previous bachelor degree suffice?</p>

<p>As I said before, I have a pretty scary college transcript. There are an unfortunate number of Fs and Ds and there is obviously nothing I can do about that now. So the probability of even being admitted to another program is slim. That won't stop me from applying, though. Always stay positive! :D</p>

<p>Any information you can provide me would be super helpful. Thanks! :)</p>

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<p>First of all humanities degrees are real degrees, I can’t speak for America but they are highly valued by British employers.</p>

<p>I think a first is comparable to a 4.0, upper second class is around a 3.6 and lower second class is around 3.0.</p>

<p>How much you spend very much depends on where you go and what you study. The UK is very expensive and there is no financial aid. It might not be worth it just for a second undergraduate degree. Elsewhere in Europe might be a better option; the Netherlands is much cheaper and has many degrees taught only in English.</p>

<p>I would say for fees and living costs you will need about £25,000 a year (assuming you study a science or engineering subject, which costs more). I have used London living costs which will be much higher than most other places, so depending on where you study the total cost could be less than that.</p>

<p>SATs are a waste of time. Do you have any APs and what subjects are they in? If you want to apply for a science degree then you will probably need some sort of science qualification. If I were you I would email individual universities and ask whether your BA will meet entry requirements. Some British universities have what is called a foundation year which is for students who do not have the appropriate science background, upon completion you move onto the first year of university. You really need to decide what you want to study and then look into meeting entry requirements.</p>

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<p>So far, I’ve only looked at studying in the United Kingdom. I’ve discovered that the British higher education system is quite different than the American system. Degree programs appear to be much more specialized
**That’s correct - British students apply for a specific subject, and they specialise in it from day one. There is no expectation that students will change their subject, and it is unusual for someone to swap courses. **</p>

<p>and I still can’t wrap my head around the UK degree classification scheme (first class, second class, etc. - Is there a standardized conversion to an American GPA?).
**First class = 70%+
Upper Second Class (2:1) = 60%+
Lower Second Class (2:2) = 50%+
Third = 40%+
Fail = <40%</p>

<p>Yes, it’s much harder to get a high percentage at a British university. Employers looking for graduates usually as for a 2:1 or 1st. I’m not aware of any kind of standard conversion to GPA though**</p>

<p>How much would one expect to spend for total expenses (tuition, cost of living, everything) per year of study?
**If you are living the ‘student lifestyle’ (on a budget, but still having fun) then you should budget around £8000 per year for living expenses. You also need to budget for tuition (highly variable) and flights home. **</p>

<p>If I applied for an undergraduate program, would I have to take some sort of test (like the US SAT) or would having a previous bachelor degree suffice?
**They will ask for all your qualifications, including your high school diploma, SAT, AP tests and bachelors degree. You must include everything, as if you don’t and they find out, you could be kicked out of uni for having submitted a fraudulent application. So yes, that F does have to be included! **</p>

<p>**I’d question whether you are better off doing another UG degree - which will be 3 or 4 years long and cost a lot - or a PG degree, which will only be 1 or 2 years long, will leave you with a higher qualification and work out cheaper. </p>

<p>However, if you want to go for a change of direction (rather than studying subjects that you studied at UG level in more depth) then I would recommend a UG degree.</p>

<p>Don’t forget that, if you apply for a UG degree you will need to apply via [UCAS</a> - Home](<a href=“http://www.ucas.ac.uk%5DUCAS”>http://www.ucas.ac.uk), and you will need to get your application in by January 15th in the year you wish to apply for *at the latest<a href=“the%20earlier%20the%20better”>/I</a>, and that you will need to narrow your choices down to five - the maximum allowed on a UCAS form. You will also need to write a personal statement. American style ones are totally different to what the British are looking for, so I’d recommend getting info from <a href="http://www..co.uk%5B/url%5D">www..co.uk</a> (a bit like CC!) **</p>

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<p>Thanks to both of you for your very helpful responses! :)</p>

<p>Dionysus58: I didn’t intend to say that humanities degrees aren’t real degrees, though I guess that’s what it read like. It’s just that, at least here in the states, in this economy recent graduates with humanities degrees (like myself) are finding it extremely difficult to obtain employment. For recent science graduates, the market is significantly better.</p>

<p>Thank you for clarifying the honor degree classification for me. My degree would be roughly equivalent, then, to a lower second class. Many thanks. :)</p>

<p>I will definitely look into English language programs on the continent. Total cost is an important factor in my decision, but so is marketability. My main goal for all of this is to increase my credentials so that when the economy improves (fingers crossed) I will be able to find gainful employment.</p>

<p>So, I shouldn’t retake the SAT? Got it. As for AP classes, no I didn’t take any. I attended a hybrid private/homeschool academy for both middle and high school. They didn’t offer AP courses. However, this wasn’t a problem for me when I applied to college the first time around. AP courses are essentially undergrad classes offered in high school, right? Wouldn’t my 150 or so undergrad credits be the same thing? Pardon my ignorance here, I haven’t be in the college application game for six years.</p>

<p>Thanks again for your help, Dionysus58.</p>

<p>boomting: So they would want to know my SAT score? If it would help my chance, maybe I should retake it? I’ll have to research this issue more. I’ll post back when/if I find something definitive about SATs for UK second bachelor students.</p>

<p>I’ve thought long and hard about a second UG degree and whether it’s worth it. To be honest, I’m not sure. The reason I mentioned it in my original post is that while I really enjoyed my final major (after trying more or less all of them! haha) I can’t get a job, at least in this economy, with it. And my main motivation to go back to school is to boost my credentials with the short run aim of obtaining employment and the long run goal of increasing my career outcome. If I were to pursue a math, science, or engineering degree, I would almost certainly have to do some extensive post-baccalaureate work to even begin a graduate program. Perhaps it would be just as expensive to do a combined BS/MS somewhere? I don’t know, of course. I’m still in the early stages of scouting schools and programs.</p>

<p>I do know what I’d like to study. I’m very interested in studying mathematics or statistics. It’s funny, actually. Growing up I hated math class and only barely got through it. But, surprisingly, I discovered in college that I really enjoyed math! Of course, this was far too late to major in it, but nonetheless I like it. I’ve researched the ‘jobs numbers’ and they are quite promising for math and stat grads. I’ve also got an interest in civil, structural, and industrial engineering, but I’m under the impression those programs tend to be more competitive. With my poor marks on my first B.A., I doubt I’d be admitted to an engineering school.</p>

<p>I’ve already registered an account with the UCAS and filled out most of my personal information, just in case I go down that route. I was very surprised to read about the five choice limit. That’s quite restrictive, but I guess they needed a way to limit the number of applications admissions committees have to sift through. I imagine the five choice limit is per course, and not university? Meaning, you must choose a maximum of five courses to apply for and not just apply to five separate universities?</p>

<p>Thanks again for your help. I appreciate your responses! :)</p>

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<p>Apart from Oxford and Cambridge, you can apply to 5 different courses at one uni if you want (though this would make it almost impossible to write a coherent personal statement) or for 1 course at each of 5 different unis, or any combination of these. But no more than 5 in any case.</p>

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<p>cupcake: I see. That is very odd to me indeed. When I applied to college the first time, I think I applied to twelve schools just to be safe. I got into the school I wanted, of course; the others were safety schools. I guess I’ll need to be quite strategic in the schools I apply to. Perhaps I’ll choose one school each from the top 25, three from 26-75 and one school from 76-100? By the way, is this an accurate list?</p>

<p>[Top</a> UK University League Tables and Rankings 2013 - Complete University Guide](<a href=“http://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/league-tables/rankings]Top”>University Rankings and League Tables 2024)</p>

<p>Thanks!</p>

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<p>By the way, boomting, the URL you posted is filled with asterisks. Maybe the board doesn’t allow hyperlinks? Could you post it like “www dot google dot com” so I could visit it? :)</p>

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<p>I believe he meant to direct you to the student room, a British version of this site. It has loads of free resources for applying to university, it is certainly worth visiting. There are some Americans on that board who I believe are also doing second undergraduate degrees in the UK.</p>

<p>No, that list is not accurate. League tables vary hugely every year in the UK, the way most are put together is often questionable and rely on a lot on trivial and very subjective data. I don’t think you should be looking to apply to universities in the way one does in the US, you should look for individual degree programmes that you like - there can be quite a lot of difference between degree programmes of the same name so be sure to research them thoroughly.</p>

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<p>I believe the website mentioned earlier is The Student Room. Just google, “student room,” it’s the first link that ends in “.uk” it is a very good a website I second the recommendation that you visit this site.</p>

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<p>Lol just saw what the last poster put. Nevermind. :)</p>

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<p>boomting: So they would want to know my SAT score? If it would help my chance, maybe I should retake it? I’ll have to research this issue more. I’ll post back when/if I find something definitive about SATs for UK second bachelor students.
**The general rule is that they want to know all qualifications that you have gained. This would normally include SATs (NB SATs are very different things in the UK and US . . . don’t get them confused!) I’d suggest emailing universities that you are interested in, to get their take on the situation and an idea of the grades that they would be looking for. **</p>

<p>I’ve thought long and hard about a second UG degree and whether it’s worth it. To be honest, I’m not sure. The reason I mentioned it in my original post is that while I really enjoyed my final major (after trying more or less all of them! haha) I can’t get a job, at least in this economy, with it. And my main motivation to go back to school is to boost my credentials with the short run aim of obtaining employment and the long run goal of increasing my career outcome. If I were to pursue a math, science, or engineering degree, I would almost certainly have to do some extensive post-baccalaureate work to even begin a graduate program. Perhaps it would be just as expensive to do a combined BS/MS somewhere? I don’t know, of course. I’m still in the early stages of scouting schools and programs.
**If it helps, it is common in the UK to find engineering and science courses that are ‘undergraduate masters’ - that is, a combined bachelors and masters. They take 4 years, and you come out with an MPhys, MEng, MPharm or similar. **</p>

<p>I do know what I’d like to study. I’m very interested in studying mathematics or statistics. It’s funny, actually. Growing up I hated math class and only barely got through it. But, surprisingly, I discovered in college that I really enjoyed math! Of course, this was far too late to major in it, but nonetheless I like it. I’ve researched the ‘jobs numbers’ and they are quite promising for math and stat grads. I’ve also got an interest in civil, structural, and industrial engineering, but I’m under the impression those programs tend to be more competitive. With my poor marks on my first B.A., I doubt I’d be admitted to an engineering school.
**Engineering isn’t as competitive as you might imagine, and it is entirely possible that you would get into a decent uni with your grades. Maths has become less popular over time, to the extent that I believe some unis have had to close their maths departments. </p>

<p>We are currently starting to see the effects in terms of applications that a major change in government funding for universities has had - current indications are that there will be some Russell Group (the closest thing we have to Ivies) offering courses in Clearing (a service for those who have missed their offers) this year, which has not happened before to such a significant level. This, combined with the fact that you will be paying international fees, means that it will be easier to get into uni. </p>

<p>Again, as you’ve got non-standard qualifications, it’s a good idea to contact universities before you apply. **</p>

<p>I’ve already registered an account with the UCAS and filled out most of my personal information, just in case I go down that route. I was very surprised to read about the five choice limit. That’s quite restrictive, but I guess they needed a way to limit the number of applications admissions committees have to sift through. I imagine the five choice limit is per course, and not university? Meaning, you must choose a maximum of five courses to apply for and not just apply to five separate universities?</p>

<p>**You can apply for five courses. These may be at the same university (but as one other poster said, it would make your PS a nightmare to write!) at five different universities or a combination of the two. You can only submit one UCAS application per cycle, and there is no alternative admissions system, so there’s no way around it. </p>

<p>I think the aim of the five application limit is to keep the number of applications manageable, and to make it easier for universities to hand out an accurate number of offers - if they over-recruit UK students, then they are fined by the government, so they want to get it right! It also forces people to be more realistic about where they apply to and to think about it before they apply, rather than afterwards. The good thing about UCAS is that the same application goes out to all five, so you don’t have to worry about writing multiple applications. </p>

<p>Normally, people will apply to one or two ‘ambitious’ choices (Oxford / Cambridge is always counted as an ambitious choice, no matter your grades), one / two / three ‘realistic’ choices, and one / two ‘insurance’ choices. </p>

<p>And yes, it was The Student Room that I was trying to direct you to! **</p>

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<p>Dionysus58: Ah, okay. I suppose I’m looking at this with an American perspective. Many of us choose which colleges to apply to based on the US News & World Report rankings. Silly, I know, but true. So I should be looking at individual programs instead of arbitrary rankings. I’ll start searching for math/statistics/civil engineering programs and begin compiling a list.</p>

<p>boomting: First, thank you for the tip about The Student Room. I’ve registered an account there and posted an introduction. I’ve already learned a great deal (that site has a wealth of UK specific information - fantastic).</p>

<p>Yes, that sounds lovely, the “undergraduate master” programs. Many US universities have started in the past couple of decades to offer these combined degree programs (though most of the American variety are 5 year programs - 4 is even better!).</p>

<p>I’m very surprised to read that engineering isn’t at the top of the competitive scale. I as under the impression that engineering is more or less the most competitive undergraduate field. And mathematics has become pass</p>

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<p>Dionysus58: Ah, okay. I suppose I’m looking at this with an American perspective. Many of us choose which colleges to apply to based on the US News & World Report rankings. Silly, I know, but true. So I should be looking at individual programs instead of arbitrary rankings. I’ll start searching for math/statistics/civil engineering programs and begin compiling a list
**Dionysus is right - the league tables are a load of tosh. A better way to look at university prestige is (in order)
Oxford / Cambridge
Russell Group (Imperial is particularly good for STEM (Science, Tech, Engineering & Maths) subjects)
1994 Group
The rest of them (ex-polytechnics, mainly - some of them are utterly crap, so do your research)</p>

<p>Obviously there are variations within those groups, and some universities are better than others for certain subjects, but it gives you a fairly good idea. **</p>

<p>boomting: First, thank you for the tip about The Student Room. I’ve registered an account there and posted an introduction **I know - I saw! :wink: **. I’ve already learned a great deal (that site has a wealth of UK specific information - fantastic).</p>

<p>Yes, that sounds lovely, the “undergraduate master” programs. Many US universities have started in the past couple of decades to offer these combined degree programs (though most of the American variety are 5 year programs - 4 is even better!).</p>

<p>I’m very surprised to read that engineering isn’t at the top of the competitive scale. I as under the impression that engineering is more or less the most competitive undergraduate field. And mathematics has become pass</p>

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<p>Fascinating. :)</p>

<p>I had some free time today and I used it to start searching for combined degree programs. I discovered a number of programs, actually - more than I expected. Unfortunately, at a number of these colleges I’ve been unable to locate admissions numbers. These stats are very important to me as I need to make smart, realistic choices on where to apply.</p>

<p>Specifically, would anyone know where to find the University of Aberdeen numbers? I’m sure it must be obvious, but they are hiding from me! :D</p>

<p>I’ve a great deal more to say but it’s difficult at the moment as I’m away from home this evening and typing this message on my iPhone.</p>

<p>Anyway, thanks for all of your help!</p>

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<p>TBH, there’s a limit to how much the universities publish admissions stats - some do, some don’t.</p>

<p>The admissions stats would mean relatively little to you anyway - not only do you have non-standard qualifications, but the very top universities tend to have applicants that are self selecting. This is why it looks like it’s much easier to get into Oxford than Harvard. It’s not - it’s just that because people are limited to 5 applications, they don’t waste one application on a university they are highly unlikely to get into - so all applicants have a realistic chance of entry to Oxford. </p>

<p>The best way to gauge your likelihood of getting an offer are to email the universities with the qualifications you have and listen to their response. That will mean much more to you than any admissions stats.</p>

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<p>You’re probably very right. I’ll compose a couple of e-mails this weekend and see what they say. Some colleges actually have a very nice international student page (which seem to cater almost entirely to Americans - I found that funny :D). I’ll concentrate on the universities which seem most open to international students as I imagine they will offer me to the best chance of being admitted. I’ve also researched a couple of courses taught in English in Denmark, The Netherlands, and Sweden. I’ll look into those as well.</p>

<p>Thanks again and I’ll be sure to post more as the process goes on. :)</p>