"Don't Become a Scientist"

<p><a href="http://www.physics.wustl.edu/%7Ekatz/scientist.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.physics.wustl.edu/~katz/scientist.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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Don't Become a Scientist!</p>

<p>Jonathan I. Katz
Professor of Physics
Washington University, St. Louis, Mo.</p>

<p>Are you thinking of becoming a scientist? Do you want to uncover the mysteries of nature, perform experiments or carry out calculations to learn how the world works? Forget it!</p>

<p>...</p>

<p>Why am I (a tenured professor of physics) trying to discourage you from following a career path which was successful for me? Because times have changed (I received my Ph.D. in 1973, and tenure in 1976). American science no longer offers a reasonable career path. If you go to graduate school in science it is in the expectation of spending your working life doing scientific research, using your ingenuity and curiosity to solve important and interesting problems. You will almost certainly be disappointed, probably when it is too late to choose another career.</p>

<p>American universities train roughly twice as many Ph.D.s as there are jobs for them. When something, or someone, is a glut on the market, the price drops. In the case of Ph.D. scientists, the reduction in price takes the form of many years spent in ``holding pattern'' postdoctoral jobs. Permanent jobs don't pay much less than they used to, but instead of obtaining a real job two years after the Ph.D. (as was typical 25 years ago) most young scientists spend five, ten, or more years as postdocs. They have no prospect of permanent employment and often must obtain a new postdoctoral position and move every two years. For many more details consult the Young Scientists' Network or read the account in the May, 2001 issue of the Washington Monthly...

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<p>I'm sorry that you feel that way about Science but I strongly disagree with you even though it is a bit harder than before to land a job. I have applied to two graduate programs ( very different programs) and one of them happens to be for a MSc in Zoology/Biology. I love Science and I could never think any less of it. </p>

<p>I major in Biology btw.</p>

<p>Yep, I agree with the above person. People who are in science or math or ... are not necessarily in it for the creature comforts.</p>

<p>I think this should be moved (or at least re-posted) to a more frequented part of the forums. It's very interesting.</p>

<p>Frankly, I'm unsure whether to, at this point, totally reconfigure my life plans or try to find fault in the professor's arguments.</p>

<p>We should all forget about grad school and go to the NBA like the OP.</p>

<p>I can relate to OP's post. In fact that's what I'm doing right now (Switching to computer engineering from biology lol). </p>

<p>I used to like science (biology) until I work as a lab technician in the "real world" not just as an undergrad research assistant(well, I did that too). Working in a research institute, I discovered many interesting stories ranging from the sad life of post docs, the rat race of writing grants, the low pay, the relentless pursuit of data and stuff like that. </p>

<p>I don't mean to offend anyone but I personally just think many scientists job is quite pathetic because they literally have to "beg" for grant money to survive. </p>

<p>I guess I was fortunate that I found out what I dislike early rather than when I'm in the middle of grad school.</p>

<p>Hey guys, sorry if I sent the wrong message. I'm actually very interested in becoming a traditional scientist (in molecular biology/genetics) but would also like to live a stable lifestyle, have a family, etc. etc. These don't portray my views to the science field at all (hence the quotes on the title), I just wanted to see some responses in defense of the claims made by Katz. I've been told by many (including my parents, relatives, and college friends) to do as Katz says and go into Medicine, Law, or Business and leave science to foreigners. I just wanted to see your guys' views on the "post-doc after post-doc" allegation mad e in the article as well as the job insecurity. </p>

<p>Sorry if I sounded as if I agreed wholeheartedly with Katz.</p>

<p>I now know never to apply to Washington University in St. Louis. Thanks for the heads up!</p>

<p>Aren't most careers in academia like that, though? I mean, in my field (Political Science) you bust your tail for years just to get through your PhD, then you mill around for about a decade working as a lecturer or a JC prof before you actually gt picked up somewhere. Meanwhile, you have to publich a bunch of papers, try to suck up to the heads of whatever schools Poli Sci department you want to be a part of and generally scrape by for along time just to land a mediocre job at the end.</p>

<p>Im sure many will disagree with my cynicism, but there are too many undergrads (mainly on CC) who think that getting accepted to a PhD program was their final hurdle in entering academia. Please.</p>

<p>Interesting, I keep on hearing about the misery of the postdoc life. It does kind of suck that researchers generally have to suffer the postdoc hurdles to enter academia, which usually doesn't even pay as well as jobs in the industry. And although the professor says that the postdoc life applies only to researchers in the sciences, it seems like more and more engineering researchers are also having to play the postdoc game.</p>

<p>Everything just keeps getting harder, doesn't it? E.g... only 10 to 15 years ago, the vast majority of applicants to graduate schools probably didn't have any undergraduate research experience. Nowadays, it's almost impossible to get into a grad school without having some research experience. On the one hand, it's cool that undergrads get a taste of real research so that they know what they're getting into; on the other, it stiffens the competition with a de facto requirement that makes them work harder and stress out more during their undergraduate career (summer vacations are a thing of the past).</p>

<p>I have trouble getting really worked up over articles like this. I mean, yeah, if you want an academic position in the sciences, you've got a long row to hoe. Is that a surprise? Has anyone ever suggested that it was easy to land a job as a professor?</p>

<p>Obviously postdoctoral stipends have risen quite a bit in the years since the original post was written; I didn't have a graduate school stipend offer under $25,000. I think the postdoc average in the biological sciences is now somewhere in the $50-60,000 range. It's not a huge amount of money, for sure. But if you're in it for the money, you shouldn't be a scientist anyway.</p>

<p>The way I see it is that I'll do grad school and a postdoc. At that point, and only at that point, I will decide whether I'd like to stay on the academic treadmill or go into pharma/biotech. I think the scientific career path is only distressing if you're committed to one particular path without knowing whether or not you're good enough to do it. I don't think the career prospects are disappointing, as long as you're aware of what you're getting into at the beginning.</p>

<p>I also find the advice to eschew science in favor of professional school to be puzzling. Uh, some of us have no desire to be doctors or lawyers?</p>

<p>His article seems to forget that money is not the only thing that can make people happy. Scientists like doing science, not practicing law.</p>

<p>I agree with mollieb. I think I found the original post somewhere online, but <em>shrug</em> It's not at all surprising to me. I know exactly what I'm getting into by applying for bio phd programs. </p>

<p>I guess you were heading in with the ideal of having a nice comfortable life with family and stuff, then the not so glamorous reality might be disturbing. Personally, I've been doing my research on the field for years now and I know that it's not going to be easy, but I want to do research. I don't want to try to do my little bit of good for the world by treating a single patient at a time.</p>

<p>What about industry? It is true that getting academic jobs is hard, but you can make a killing in industry with a phd. I worked at a biotech place where phds were making a minimum of $100k in managment positions.</p>

<p>The other thing to keep in mind is that he is a physicist and it is much much more difficult to land academic jobs than biology or chemistry. The government just doesn't sink as much information into science that basic but they absolutely love bio and silicon stuff (as do big companies like merck and intel with big budgets)</p>

<p>My understanding is that, with a PhD you can make a killing in industry, but you have to pimp yourself out to pharmaceutical corps or whatever, which kind of turns some people off. Honestly, I wouldn't want to bust my ass in graduate school for years just so I could go land a boring job working for Pfizer.</p>

<p>I agree with the sentiments posted here - I'm all for doing what you really love and working hard to do it. But I also think it's a shame that it should have to be a choice between doing scientific research and making some dough. (Not to over-generalize, of course many scientists have gone on to become extremely wealthy as a result of their discoveries or their industrial pursuits.)</p>

<p>Society should pay more for grad students and postdocs! Ok, that's obviously not going to happen anytime soon - law of supply and demand at work here. In any event, there's at least the consolation that scientists make more than artists. Ha ha. (I kid.)</p>

<p>I personally hate the Corporate world where everything is about money, money. If I'm going to do something I want to do it becuase I love it, not because of how much it pays. Of course money is necessary, but as someone said here, not everyone is in it to make big bucks, or wants to pursue a career in Medicine, law, etc... </p>

<p>I'm actually considering four different programs, conservation biology, zoology, Public Health, and another one that is more on the international scale but has some relation to health issues.</p>

<p>i don't know why people generally choose to study science, so i only speak for myself. maybe i'm a traditionalist. i believe that only reason to be a scientist is that you really want to be one. monetary compensation should not be factored in my decisions. (besides, i know many if not all graduates students and postdocs live comfortably with their incomes.) i had to do some soul searching before i commit myself to science, because i have to know if i am made to be a scientist. so i think you only should be a scientist if you are curious about the world and want to find answers through scientific methods, and you are willing to thoroughly understand a problem by working with it for a long time. to me, you can only be a scientist after you exhibit these qualities, and i will be honored if i can be one some day. if you are not going to say "Je cherche a comprendre" in your deathbed, you are probably not going to be a scientist.</p>

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If you are in a position of leadership in science then you should try to persuade the funding agencies to train fewer Ph.D.s.

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<p>Let's face it, in biological science professors treat PhD students as a source of labor, as in all countries. If NSF did not give funds for PhD education, they still have to give funds to professors to employ research assistants, and I doubt if that would be a better thing to do.</p>

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They could reverse this situation by matching the number trained to the demand, but they refuse to do so

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but the demand is...?</p></li>
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The result is that the best young people, who should go into science, sensibly refuse to do so, and the graduate schools are filled with weak American students and with foreigners lured by the American student visa.

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I don't want to say he's being racist, but for a person who has rejected an US school for a local school due to better faculty, he has at least offended one person.</p></li>
<li><p>I understand physical sciences has serious employment issues (that's even publicized in grad school guides), but biological sciences is still rosy-- given one is willing to work in the industry labs that is.</p></li>
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<p>I largely disagree with Dr. Katz, although there are certain pieces of what he says that I do not dispute. </p>

<p>However, let me pick out the following sections</p>

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Of course, you don't go into science to get rich. So you choose not to go to medical or law school, even though a doctor or lawyer typically earns two to three times as much as a scientist (one lucky enough to have a good senior-level job).

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<p>Like I've said countless times, if you just want money, then don't get your PhD. And, frankly, don't get a medical degree or law degre either. Instead, just get an MBA and go into investment banking or related fields like private equity or venture capital. Seriously. Those guys make far far more money than scientists, doctors, or lawyers. Top Wall Street investment banks now pay 300k (salary + bonus) to start, right after getting their MBA. Business Week has reported that private equity firms pay top MBA's 450k and equity to start. And remember, those compensation figures are just * starting * figures. No need to grind your way through a low-paying medical residency right after you get an MD. While first year law firm associates can get paid quite well, it's still not as good as the money that bankers make. Banker pay packages increase very quickly as you get experience. </p>

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What can be done? The first thing for any young person (which means anyone who does not have a permanent job in science) to do is to pursue another career. This will spare you the misery of disappointed expectations. Young Americans have generally woken up to the bad prospects and absence of a reasonable middle class career path in science and are deserting it. If you haven't yet, then join them. Leave graduate school to people from India and China, for whom the prospects at home are even worse. I have known more people whose lives have been ruined by getting a Ph.D. in physics than by drugs

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<p>The first thing I would point out here is, while getting a PhD in science may not be the most lucrative thing in the world, hey, it's still far more marketable than getting a PhD in the arts. If you REALLY want to talk about people having their lives 'ruined', what about those people who are getting PhD's in art history? </p>

<p>Secondly, as has been pointed out here in this thread, what's so bad about people with PhD's going to industry? You don't HAVE to be a professor, you know. Almost all PhD disciplines in the sciences have some private-sector employers. True, you may not get to work on the problems you want, you don't enjoy academic freedom, but hey, join the club. The vast majority of people with any kind of degree (bachelor's degree, MD, JD, MBA, etc.) also usually don't get to work on the problems they want or enjoy any sort of academic freedom either. At least with a Phd, you MIGHT get an academic career and thus enjoy academic freedom (once you get tenure). So at least you have a chance. If it doesn't work out, fine, screw it, oh well, just get an industry job. </p>

<p>Some might say that getting a PhD in physics puts you in worse shape than a PhD in chemistry or biology (as the latter 2 often times allow you to get a job in the private sector in the life sciences). This might be true, but it doesn't leave you badly off either. Unless your physics specialty is deeply theoretical or has to do with astrophysics, you can usually find an industry job that is related to your work. For example, those who pursue AMO (Atomic, Molecular, Optical), quantum, plasma, or condensed matter as their physics specialty can generally find a materials science/nanotech company to work for. It doesn't even have to be a startup (although there are plenty of startups who do that). Large semiconductor companies like Intel could basically be considered a materials science/nanotech company, as semiconductor companies are starting to reach nanotech dimensions. You could work for the R&D divisions of large chemical companies like DuPont or BASF. </p>

<p>And besides, who says that you have to stay in your field of study anyway? I know that if you get a Phd, you obviously want to stay. But you don't HAVE to stay. After all, plenty of people end up in jobs that have nothing to do with what they studied. This is obviously most prevalent in undergrad, but happens even in grad school too. In the case of the sciences, especially physics, plenty of newly minted PhD's go off to investment banking or hedge funds, where they can make boatloads of money by applying their quantitative skills. They can become management consultants. I've known people who have gotten technical PhD's and immediately joined McKinsey or other management consulting firms. </p>

<p>And what of just teaching in high school after you get your PhD? I know people who have done that. What's wrong with that? Again, nothing says that you HAVE to try to become a professor after you get a PhD. If what you love is teaching, then what's so bad about teaching in high school? I know that plenty of school districts would LOVE to hire people with PhD's, especially PhD's in technical subjects as many school districts just don't have enough highly qualified science teachers, to the point that many districts are providing signing bonuses and boosted salaries for science teachers. So why not consider doing that, just as a backup? Dr. Katz talks about how you can't support a family on a science PhD, but last time I checked, high school teachers aren't exactly starving. Sure, they're not rich, but it's not a bad lifestyle, especially considering that they get the whole summer off, they get winter break and spring break off, that many school districts offer tenure after a few years, which effectively makes you unfireable, and that the fringe benefits you get for working as a teacher tend to be pretty good - often times far better than what you would get in the private sector. So you add in the salary boost you would get for being qualified in math/science plus another salary boost for holding a PhD, plus teacher benefits, plus the fact that you don't work the whole year (you get the whole summer off) and I would say that that's a pretty decent lifestyle that is available to anybody with a science PhD. Again, you won't be rich, but you'll live a lifestyle that is, frankly, a lot better than what the majority of Americans have. I know a lot of people who wouldn't mind earning a solid middle-class salary while getting the summer off and having the possibility of tenure. </p>

<p>I know my high school REALLY needed some strong physics teachers. Frankly, of the ones that were there, I think less than half of them even had a physics bachelor's degree, and obviously none of them had a graduate physics degree. Hence, a lot of them just didn't know very much physics and so weren't in a position to teach their students much. Hence, it seems to me that that's a prime opportunity for somebody. </p>

<p>To summarize, if you get a science PhD, you have a shot at entering academia, which is your dream job, especially if you eventually win tenure. Maybe you really will be one of those people who gets picked up on a tenure-track position right after graduation without having to endure multiple post-docs. But if you can see that you're not going to get that tenure-track job, oh well, then you can consider an industry job. Or in the worst case scenario, you just go become a high school teacher. I really don't think it's that bad.</p>