Don't you think it would be better for the CAL Colleges to separate ways?

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of California - Berkeley
121

<p>Allorion, you strike me as extremely pretentious and arrogant. If you are an incoming freshmen, as your posts indicate, boy do you have a lot to learn.</p>

<p>AND THIS POST has EVERYTHING to do with the topics at hand, as Allorian is striking out loudly and boldly about his amazing ability to understand representative democracy. I suggest Allorian take a few college courses and come back.</p>

<p>Allorian background material:</p>

<p>

Bias against Berkeley's public status...</p>

<p>Allorian is one of many who are unable to conceive of the inherent good in Berkeley's public status. They see schools in terms of how many people get rejected, as if a hot blonde girl is superior to a smart brunette because the blonde gets hit on the most and in turn rejects the most guys.</p>

<p>To Allorian, Berkeley will always be inferior as long as it has "UC" in front of Berkeley. Goodness is elitism; badness is public education. Allorian indulges in what the masses of pseudo-intellectuals think. </p>

<p>Are you really looking forward to Berkeley, Allorian, or will you always feel inferior to those amazing, super intelligent people who were accepted and chose to attend Harvard? Will you be able to look yourself in the mirror, Allorian?</p>

<p>Or, I know, we can cutoff all those non-elitist students from attending Cal. We can privatize Cal! We can make it cost $40,000! We can ensure none of the riffraff gets in, yeah! All those idiots ruin everything anyway; that's why we need a representative democracy, right? We can't trust those morons!</p>

122

<p>Hmm. How amusing.</p>

<p>Try using the context. That wasn't a strike against Berkeley's public status, by the way, but basically a paraphrase of Wikipedia's description of the events behind the People's Park incidents.</p>

<p>If you notice, I've never mentioned getting rid of the UC. Or privatizing Berkeley.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Allorian is one of many who are unable to conceive of the inherent good in Berkeley's public status. They see schools in terms of how many people get rejected, as if a hot blonde girl is superior to a smart brunette because the blonde gets hit on the most and in turn rejects the most guys.

[/quote]

Well, at least I got a chuckle out of that.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Are you really looking forward to Berkeley, Allorian, or will you always feel inferior to those amazing, super intelligent people who were accepted and chose to attend Harvard? Will you be able to look yourself in the mirror, Allorian?

[/quote]

Quite, actually. I chose Berkeley over my other choices because of personal like. Obviously, I can't deny finances factored into it, but that as well was my own choice rather than urged by my folks.</p>

<p>If you would like to search my past posts some more, you can also find me praising the beauty of Berkeley's campus and food, and staunchly advocating Berkeley when the opinion in the particular thread is strongly anti-Berkeley (no caveats in my arguments, by the way).</p>

<p>
[quote]
Or, I know, we can cutoff all those non-elitist students from attending Cal. We can privatize Cal! We can make it cost $40,000! We can ensure none of the riffraff gets in, yeah! All those idiots ruin everything anyway; that's why we need a representative democracy, right? We can't trust those morons!

[/quote]

Hmm. "Riffraff"... don't normally use that word, perhaps I should?</p>

<p>In any case, if you read Charles Beard's An Economics Interpretation of the American Constitution, it is absolutely fascinating why the Framers chose to establish a republic rather than a democracy.
If you really want to know though, I think most people, who decide to learn the difference, believe that it is a good thing that America is a Republic rather than pure democracy. For one, it's worked. For another, there isn't a single pure democracy of decent size (you always have your small villages, of course) out there that's stood for any length of time.</p>

<p>As for trust, it depends on who you define as morons. I certainly wouldn't trust absolutely everyone with governing the nation. Would you? As James Madison explained, it's factions that keep each other in check, and while he didn't exactly predict a two-party system, it's worked much to how the Federalist Papers outlined things should.</p>

<p>Now:

[quote]
Allorion, you strike me as extremely pretentious and arrogant. If you are an incoming freshmen, as your posts indicate, boy do you have a lot to learn.

[/quote]

It is a sad day when one no longer has things to learn. Every characterization is, of course, in the eyes of the beholder. If you believe me to be extremely pretentious and arrogant, then I can't begrudge you your opinion.
At times, I'd be inclined to agree with you!</p>

<p>
[quote]
AND THIS POST has EVERYTHING to do with the topics at hand, as Allorian is striking out loudly and boldly about his amazing ability to understand representative democracy. I suggest Allorian take a few college courses and come back.

[/quote]

As you wish, of course. You aren't barred from hitting the reply button. I fail to see as much how it deals with the topic at hand, but as you will.</p>

<p>I'm actually looking forward to the poli sci courses. It is a personal interest, after all.</p>

<p>In any case, I could do without, but I will mention this: In different circumstances, I might have chosen a private school. Even at this point, I might, given an enticing offer I was given recently.
However, at this stage, I've been exhausted by all of this prestige and career prospects and whatnot that I was using before to determine universities.</p>

<p>To put it short, my angry friend, I argue on the basis of principle and the loyalty I have to the institution that I spent hundreds of hours in my high school years at, and what I believe will help it improve.</p>

123

<p>
[quote]
Yeah, look at how many U.S. presidents have come from Harvard. Harvard must be turning out some good people it has a reputation for turning out many of America's greatest leaders and innovators. My point is that there must be something behind the prestige. A school doesn't become the most prestigious university in the world by being mediocre.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'll say it once again. Harvard has had almost FOUR centuries of history and tradition-more than enough time to be elevated to the status of desirable attainment. Througout that vast extense of that time, wealthy white American families sent their male children to study at Harvard. When these students graduated, they automatically inherented their fathers' high social status. This allowed them to become leaders and innovators. They then gave money to their alma mater like there was no tomorrow-and the cycle continues to this day. Berkeley was not as privileged. BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE QUALITY OF BERKELEY'S RESOURCES TODAY DOES NOT EQUAL AND/OR SURPASS HARVARD'S. In fact, Berkeley has effectively eclipsed Harvard in many fields and it is arguable that, overall, it is better than Harvard. </p>

<p>
[quote]
A school doesn't become the most prestigious university in the world by being mediocre.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Indeed. I never said it was.</p>

124

<p>I do agree with g1a2b3e on something- some posters here have really never been to Berkeley for more than a week in their lives and seem to think theyknow a lot about it. Try living with it for a while, some actual experience as much as one can, a lot more anecdotal experience (especially more than just what shows up on this board in CC). Remember you haven't had much contact with a lot of what I see you talk about. Remember to say "I've heard" and "It seems" and not "This is obviously the way it is." I hope I don't seem hypocritical -I try to do the same as much as possible.</p>

125

<p>I don't want to get into these arguments because they are not germane to this forum or thread--the poli sci stuff.</p>

126

<p>Well, that's another form of democracy, which is somewhat similar, but I meant pure/direct democracy.</p>

<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pure_democracy%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pure_democracy&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>In any case, I've gotten far more involved in this thread and CC than I ever intended to when I registered--as well as acquired more of an online bite than I'm comfortable with. Far, far beyond my original intentions of lurking and occasionally asking questions.</p>

<p>Despite the argument and interesting though abrasive discussion about politics, I'm glad that you believe Berkeley is a great place, though I think to do it justice is to place it in direct competition at the level it is truly capable of competing at--against Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and the like. It did once, and not that much has changed about the university.</p>

<p>DRab mentioned something, that I am starting to sound like Sakky. Out of personal opinion, if I am, then I am starting to do more harm than good for Berkeley. I respect him and his opinions, but you certainly don't need more than one of him. With all the naysayers in comparison with other universities, Berkeley could overall do with more CalXs and less Sakkys. In that case, it's time to make my departure from CC.</p>

<p>I'm bowing out, and I tip my hat to all of you and wish you good luck. Nothing is certain, but I expect I'll be looking forward to seeing some of you at Berkeley (Berkeley's a big place). Eh, I might be drawn back, but I doubt it. </p>

<p>As far as I know, farewell. <em>tips hat</em>
Good luck to you all.</p>

127

<p>
[quote]
I'm glad that you believe Berkeley is a great place, though I think to do it justice is to place it in direct competition at the level it is truly capable of competing at--against Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and the like. It did once, and not that much has changed about the university.

[/quote]

I think Berkeley is BETTER than those schools, partly BECAUSE it is public. See ya later...</p>

128

<p>Okay, I'm going to address just a few things and hopefully be done with this.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I do agree with g1a2b3e on something- some posters here have really never been to Berkeley for more than a week in their lives and seem to think theyknow a lot about it. Try living with it for a while, some actual experience as much as one can, a lot more anecdotal experience (especially more than just what shows up on this board in CC).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You're completely right about this, and I'm sorry if I have sounded this way. I'll be the first to admit that I actually do not know very much about Berkeley. What I post I gathered from my own limited contact with the school, other friends who attends, things posted on this website, and prospective students and such. I try to write "I heard" and "it seems" as much as I can because most of what I write is just speculative and based on anecdotes.</p>

<p>I came onto this board and saw a lot of negatives posted about Berkeley, and from many prospective students I've talked to it seems like Berkeley is a "safety" for the more selective private schools (note: I'm not saying it is a safety, or that it's any worse of a school). Then I read more about it, visited, and I really think it's a pretty darn good school. I'm really happy to be attending there, and I really just want to see these two things happen:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>To have more students choose Berkeley over another comparable school, such as UCLA or a private school. I really like the school and I want to see more good students attend and experience it. It's pretty depressing when almost everyone I know chooses UCLA or a private over it. Of the two regents I know, both are attending a private instead. There are people who choose to pay thousands extra, to travel 3000 miles away, to an unfamiliar territory with bad weather, instead of Berkeley. I want these people to choose Berkeley and to know that a public education can be just as good.</p></li>
<li><p>There have been many complaints about the undergrad experience from many people I've talked to who goes there. Berkeley does have its share of problems, and it tends to give leave some undergraduates with a bad taste in their mouths. I want Berkeley to fix or alleviate these problems so that the students here can be happier and leave with a really good impression of the place.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>The way I see it, Berkeley can accomplish this by improving its undergraduate education and fixing some of its problems, whether this be smaller class sizes, better advising, better housing, better staff, etc. I can't really define what makes an undergraduate education good. Heck, it's hard for anyone to define it; that's why every single ranking attempted has been under repeated criticisms. But I think we all have a vague idea of what makes a school good, and I think we can come up with certain things a school can do to make itself better. That's why I'm here. </p>

<p>Berkeley has done some great things like 2 year guaranteed housing, and better food, but I think it can do even more, and I want to do whatever I can to come up with ideas with other people here on how Berkeley can keep improving, because I think there's definitely room for it. I've been bringing up sakky's arguments many times ("sounding like him") because I think he has some pretty good ideas about some things Berkeley can do better, and I think it's worth getting out there.</p>

<p>I admit that Berkeley is a great school. I just want it to be even better so people can have a great education/experience without desperately competing to get into a selective private, or traveling so far away, or often paying a lot more, and I want them to see that a public education can be just as good.</p>

<p>I'm sorry if I offended some posters here, or came off as argumentative. I'm not trying to win an argument against anyone or prove that I know more about something than someone else. I love threads like these because I want to keep learning about Berkeley, and if nothing else these posters offer a variety of different perspectives. I have the utmost respect for all of you guys posting here, and I hope you will continue to post in the future for me and other students/prospective students.</p>

129

<p>Because there seems to be a discussion, and a discrepancy, about Cal students and how "disgruntled" or unhappy they are with their undergrad experience, I think we should take some sort of poll. Instead of hearing things third or fourth hand from your sister's boyfriend's uncle who hated Berkeley, why don't we ask the people who actually attend the school or who attended it in the past. I could be wrong, but the only Cal student or alum who really bashes it is Sakky. Again, I could be wrong, but it seems like the people who actually go to Cal are huge fans of it. That's not to say that we think its perfect, but that we see that the positives far outway the negatives. Lets have a roll call for Cal students and see what THEY think about these problems, because no offense, but how could someone who has never stepped foot into a classroom here be an authority on anything?</p>

130

<p>
[quote]
Again, I could be wrong, but it seems like the people who actually go to Cal are huge fans of it.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yes, that is the reality of the situation. </p>

<p>Here's a recent poll: </p>

<p><a href="https://osr2.berkeley.edu/Public/surveys/ucues/2005/core2005.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;https://osr2.berkeley.edu/Public/surveys/ucues/2005/core2005.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

131

<p>SnuggleMonster,</p>

<p>I don't think sakky really "bashes" Cal. He just seems willing to say what works and what doesn't.</p>

<p>Why does that bother you so much? I enjoy hearing criticisms of UCLA from current students, because it helps me to figure out where I should earmark my donations for, as well as what I should push for at alumni events.</p>

132

<p>
[quote]
I think we should take some sort of poll. Instead of hearing things third or fourth hand from your sister's boyfriend's uncle who hated Berkeley

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, out of all the Berkeley students I know, I talk to four pretty often. One likes it and three are pretty "ehh" and sometimes complain about certain aspects. Those are the first-hand accounts I really get. Polls seem to indicate that most Berkeley students come out pretty satisfied. My theory is that they are pretty satisfied on the whole because let's face it, Berkeley's a good school, but maybe many were dissatisfied with certain aspects that marred the experience. Maybe something can be done about that.</p>

133

<p>"I don't think sakky really "bashes" Cal. He just seems willing to say what works and what doesn't."</p>

<p>Of course he does. He doesn't think Cal is even a "good" school when it comes to UG education, so it makes sense for him to bash it.</p>

<p>"Why does that bother you so much? I enjoy hearing criticisms of UCLA from current students, because it helps me to figure out where I should earmark my donations for, as well as what I should push for at alumni events."</p>

<p>It bothers me on a couple of levels. First, he states things as facts and repeats them over and over until people start to believe them. For example, I've never heard any of my friends complain about how hard it is to switch majors, yet now its the evidence dejour for why Cal UG is aweful. Where do you suppose that came from. Second, I find his posts repetitive and boring, so for pure entertainment he gets a D. I'm fine with Sakky posting as much as he wants. Not everyone has a good time at Berkeley, but I don't find sakky's criticisms all that valid.</p>

134

<p>
[quote]
Of course he does. He doesn't think Cal is even a "good" school when it comes to UG education, so it makes sense for him to bash it.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>He's never said that it's bad (and there you go putting words in mouths again.) He says that it can be better. </p>

<p>There's a difference between "bad" and "could improve."</p>

135

<p>"He's never said that it's bad (and there you go putting words in mouths again.) He says that it can be better."</p>

<p>He says it's not good, so where does that leave it? To me, if you say Cal is not good, you are saying it's bad. Maybe I'm just weird that way.</p>

136

<p>Where has he said that it's "not good?"</p>

<p>You also told me that I said that UCLA's UG was horrible, so I'm not about to trust that you aren't reading into things.</p>

137

<p>He said it to me (when I was GentlemanandScholar), but I'm not going to dig through all 8 billion of his posts to find it unless he denies that he said it. He said it and I assume that he'd say it again. Sakky?</p>

138

<p>Fair enough.</p>

<p>Why'd you change your name anyway? You had so much more goodwill with the old one...</p>

<p>Well, he's told me more than once that Berkeley is a great option for a lot of people. </p>

<p>But let's be fair. If you had to improve something, what would you improve? What would you change? There has to be something at Cal that could be improved.</p>

139

<p>"Why'd you change your name anyway? You had so much more goodwill with the old one..."</p>

<p>I lost my account number or something and couldn't get a new one so I just made a new account. And I'm not all that interested in how much good will I have.</p>

<p>"But let's be fair. If you had to improve something, what would you improve? What would you change? There has to be something at Cal that could be improved."</p>

<p>There are many things that I would improve. I would streamline some of the bureaucracy by adding more possitions and making it easier to communicate with each other. I'd slightly decrease the student population by working harder to weed out unqualified apps. And I'd make sure that all the teachers actually want to teach. I've never said that Cal is perfect. There are plenty of problems here and I'd like to see them fixed, but the severity of those problems are greatly exaggerated by some people on these boards in order to make Cal seem inferior to other private schools, which I don't feel is justified.</p>

140

<p>
[quote]
And I'd make sure that all the teachers actually want to teach. I've never said that Cal is perfect.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That is a very fascist proposal. </p>

<p>No university should have the right to force its professors to like teaching students. Likewise, no university should have the right to force its students to like learning from professors.</p>

<p>Now if you're talking about hiring preferences, that would be OK. But that is not what you are proposing.</p>