<p>Bassdad, any word of who is going in the piano department? I imagine that information is being held fairly close to the chest, but it actually makes a difference for us in thinking of whom to visit. DS is very interested in one teacher, rather interested in two others.</p>
<p>What is truly interesting about this is that S's piano teacher told him she heard Oberlin was trying to GROW (not shrink) the piano department.</p>
<p>Puzzling.</p>
<p>Grant is a "gift" and you don't have to pay it back...</p>
<p>Award is a combination of any or all of the below:
Grant(s)
Loan(s)
Word Study Program(s)</p>
<p>So if someone has a $23,000 grant and the expected EFC is $0, the school should be coming up with $20,000 in loans and work study for a total Award of $43K to cover Oberlin costs.</p>
<p>Thanks Zep, that is what I thought, just some awards are stated in a way that makes them sound like you dont have to pay them back and you do. So I didnt know if some grants might be the same way.</p>
<p>So if you get a 23K grant you end up getting loans for 20K to pay for Oberlin?</p>
<p>That means you come out owing 100K(plus interest) for a 5 year double degree at Oberlin.</p>
<p>Sounds like a state school would make more sense and hope to get a better package for grad work at a conservatory should that become necessary.</p>
<p>BassDad something I just thought about on that linked Oberlin FA page. Those are figures for admitted students. One has to wonder how many kids and what kind of financing figures would be like for kids offered admission but had to decline because of financing.</p>
<p>IMHO, racking up substantial student loan debt when the intend profession of the student after graduation is in areas where, abundant, well-paying jobs are few and far between (read that as Music Performance, Availability and Pay, and Music Education, Pay, among others) is not a good idea. </p>
<p>A newly graduated BM with six figures in loan debt is in one heck of a financial hole that will take many years, and many long hours to dig out of. For this reason, especially if finances are a major consideration, any list of intended institutions should include your own state institutions, out of state institutions and some top "lesser known" private institutions which are liberal with Grant (Merit) monies, as well as your dream schools. </p>
<p>Once again, this is a process and contingency planning is part of it. If you haven't done so already, it's not a bad idea to just do a quick and dirty FAFSA (hope I got all the letters correctly) analysis of your expected family contribution. That will give you a better idea as to how much aid institutions will be willing to provide, but once again, if the EFC and student contribution comes out to $10,000 and the school costs $40,000, the $30,000 award will likely be made up of grants and loans.</p>
<p>Note also that the Oberlin strategic plan called for international promotions and increasing the number of (full pay) international students. Oberlin is at about 6% in contrast to Juilliard and MSM which are between 15-20%. Decreasing the conservatory enrollment and increasing internationals at the same time could have a serious impact on admissions. Sounds like there will be a lot fewer openings for US citizens and Oberlin will give the priority to those who require little or no FA.</p>
<p>I do not know any specifics about who will be leaving Oberlin or when it will happen, only the information that is in the Strategic Plan, what gets reported in the Oberlin Review and what was said both formally and informally at meetings I have been to in the fairly small amount of time I have spent on campus.</p>
<p>See <a href="http://www.oberlin.edu/stupub/ocreview/2005/4/15/news/article1.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.oberlin.edu/stupub/ocreview/2005/4/15/news/article1.html</a> for more on the piano department's plans.</p>
<p>I also do not know what retirement plans the Debost family may have, but that is an issue when a teacher reaches a certain age regardless of what plans the college may have. I do not think Oberlin is planning on reducing the total number of flute faculty, but that thinking could change if Debost were to announce his retirement tomorrow. Personally, I would be very surprised if either of those events were to happen. The flute program at Oberlin will sorely miss them when they leave, but I do not know whether that will be in one year, five or even more.</p>
<p>If you look at the difference between the average award and the average grant, you will notice that it tends to be in the $6K range. That is about what they expect from a Federal Stafford Loan plus Work Study. Oberlin has historically been generous with grants, using them as a large portion of the total FA Award. At many schools, loans make up a much higher part of the offered aid. Oberlin is facing the fact that the grants are going to have to shrink a bit. The average indebtedness at graduation is $15K. Some certainly graduate with more than that, but I don't think very many are even coming close to $100K.</p>
<p>TIP: The savings offered by the co-ops divided by the expected number of co-op work hours generally comes out to a better hourly rate than the work-study jobs offered by the school. It could be worth your while to join housing and dining co-ops and reduce the work-study hours accordingly. Note that some work-study jobs provide experience that will probably be useful in your intended career path (i.e. many of the ones within the Conservatory) and some do not. Also note that the co-ops reduce the number of hours that they expect if you are working elsewhere.</p>
<p>Actually, Oberlin is one of the few colleges that offers substantial FA to international students. About 80% of international students receive an aid package, with the average package close to $30K.</p>
<p>I am sure that they would be delighted to get more students from abroad paying full freight. Unless they change their policies more than they have let on, the financial incentives involved with admitting an international student over a domestic one are not all that large.</p>
<p>Re: Financial aid at Eastman / Rochester</p>
<p>My understanding is that Eastman gives merit awards in varying amounts to every admitted student, including internationals. If you are talented enough you can get almost full tuition scholarships to Eastman. Students interested in doing a double degree need to apply to the College of Arts and Sciences, but if admitted to Eastman (which is a school within the Univ. of Rochester) do not end up paying any extra tuition. And the tuition at Eastman is lower than UR. None of this, however, takes care of the fact that you will end up paying an extra year of tuition to do a double degree.</p>
<p>Although I am not surprised at conservatories that admit paying international students, I wonder at the rationale for giving financial aid to international students -- some of whom have short-term (at least) advantages over US students by virtue of their more focussed education in conservatories, e.g., in China, but also lag behind in academic and language skills. I've heard that Bard has had a problem with this after taking a large number of international students who were advanced musically but had trouble with the academics.</p>
<p>Eastman also has two tuition free programs. One is a single semester for music ed students. This allows time for additional courses and student teaching. The Take Five program is available for any student. This provides a 5th year of study with no tuition. This allows a student a full year to study and take courses outside of the student's major. This would be ideal for a conservatory student who wants additional A&S education. It is my understanding that this cannot be used to earn an additional degree.</p>
<p>In any case, it is wise to have some financial safeties, but Oberlin, Eastman and the other expensive private conservatories may still come through with attractive financial offers.</p>
<p>Thanks to one and all.</p>
<p>I agree that it seems to make little sense to end up with 100K in debt for an education in music performance, or maybe anything other than an MD or JD where you can pay that back in very short order.</p>
<p>On the other hand if the debt were 15K, then following ones dream seems feasible. The question then becomes where on the spectrum between those numbers will you really fall. Because we will be financing 90% or more of everything that is not a Grant or Scholarship(including our EFC), my guess is we would end up much higher than 15. I hope I am wrong.</p>
<p>It is unfortunate to read that Oberlin is squeezing admissions and FA. It was among the top schools on her list. The real killer is you really dont know if you would pass the audition or how much FA you will get until you go through the process. That makes it more difficult to narrow the down the list.</p>
<p>Not only do you end up with reach schools for audition reasons, also for FA reasons, and for academic reasons if you have schools that have high academic standards. Projecting possible results in all three areas to limit our list seems near impossible. Maybe I should take juggling lessons?</p>
<p>Unfortunately this whole process can result in disappointment. It is difficult for kids and parents to invest time and energy in the selection, application process, and auditions. It is more than a shame when a kid gets accepted into a top choice but with poor FA. I know we ended up paying much more than expected for these reasons. The second and third acceptances were substantially cheaper, but were much lower in perceived quality and fit. We were able to dig deeper, sacrifice more and pay the additional costs. That may not always be possible or make sense.</p>
<p>A couple of other observations: </p>
<p>The figure of 6% international enrollment is about right for the school as a whole. First Semester enrollment this year in the freshman class was 586 in the college, 99 in the con and 41 in double degree programs. 38 of those were international students. I could not find a breakdown, but it appears to me that the conservatory may be somewhere in the 10% to 15% range, with the college probably more like 3% to 4%.</p>
<p>When Oberlin cites FA numbers for admitted students, I believe it means that they apply to all those who were offered admission. I think they would have said the figures were for enrolled students if they meant the numbers applied to only those who accepted the offers.</p>
<p>BassDad: Is the 41 figure separate from the figures for the college and conservatory, or do they overlap. Either way, that's a large amount of double degree students in one year!</p>
<p>Because the conservatory has nearly 600 students on its own, the 41 are certainly not included in the 99. An incoming class of 140 is about the right size, considering there will also be a number of fith year students, some transfers in both directions and some who do not complete their degree. 99 would be far too few.</p>
<p>Since the 41 are not included in the 99, I would guess that they are also not included in the 586. It is indeed a large number of students for that program.</p>
<p>I just read somewhere how many Conservatory students at Oberlin are double degree program kids and its a huge number. I will see if I can find it but something like between 1/4 and 1/3 are in the DD program compared to almost nobody at the other schools we have looked at.</p>
<p>edad you would think there would be a better system</p>
<p>my Oberlin numbers say 584 students 13% international</p>
<p>That would be everyone in the conservatory only.</p>