Dual-Majoring as a Pre-Med?

Pre-Med & Medical School Pre-Med Topics
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<p>If you think you want to earn an engineering degree, you will be better served by remaining in the engineering program. The engineering curricula is lockstep and it will take you too long to catch up if you switch out. However, you will likely have difficulty in finding research experiences in neuroscience with an engineering background. (The exceptions might be in neural engineering areas or computational neuroscience. Behavior, cognitive and molecular neuro will too far afield of your coursework and training.)</p>

<p>What I think we’re all trying to tell you is that you don’t have to identify a specific graduate level research area interest yet. You can wait a year or so, get your basic coursework done, get some lab experience and then see what interests you. Interests change a lot during undergrad because right now you have zero exposure to just about all research areas. Right now you only have rather idealist/romanticized/theoretical ideas of what you want to study </p>

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<p>Do you think that MD/PhD academic positions are any less competitive than PhD academic positions? They’re not.</p>

<p>But you’re right to be concerned. Given the current bioscience funding paradigms and the the significant cuts to both the NIH and NSF budgets, we’re already seeing a reduction in the size of research groups at many universities, not-for-profit independents, and DOE/DOD and other federal labs. (Heck, our lab has been down-sizing for the past 3 years despite increases in non-govermental funding and outside contracts. We’re 1/3 smaller than we were 5 years ago and I see more RIFs in our future.) The research sector job outlook is weak and will continue to be for the foreseeable future. </p>

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<p>Bioscience PhD programs generally take 4-5 years to complete. This will be followed by at least 1 post-doctoral fellowship (2 years) and if you’re unsuccessful in finding a permanent academic or other research position afterwards, possibly 1-2 additional rounds of post-docing. General wisdom says if you haven’t found a permanent position by then, you’ll need to seriously consider career alternatives.</p>

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<p>Based on the advice given here alone, I am very much considering leaving the engineering school. Of course, I would not do this without talking to faculty members here for advice. I think to some degree my interest in theoretical math led me to engineering. Well, I have already realized that theoretical math is the least of an engineer’s concerns. Why don’t I pursue a mathematics degree? I want to have a job, and math has soured on my recently, to be honest.</p>

<p>Okay, now that I am leaning away from medical school (I think I know deep own that I don’t want to be a practicing doctor)-- I will try to learn morn about similar options. The thought of pursuing a PhD in neuroscience is very attractive to me. I am just wondering-- would it be realistic to dual-major in biology and neuroscience as an undergraduate? It seems as this would allow me to prepare myself well for a PhD in neuro but also make me more well-rounded and might open up possibilities. </p>

<p>I think the thing that scares me most of all-- are the job prospects of a person with a bachelors in either neuro or biology. What would someone with one of these degrees do if they weren’t going to attend med school? I don’t want to be just out of luck if the PhD track doesn’t work out.</p>

<p>Lastly, if I could get a PhD in neuroscience, and managed some solid research and publications-- I would likely get a decent professorship, right? I realize nothing is certain. </p>

<p>Lastly, just to show my ignorance-- does one not have to get a masters in neuroscience before getting a PhD? Also, do post-docs receive reasonable pay? You know, can they live fairly comfortably?</p>

<p>P.S – I am considering emailing a neuroscience professor and asking for advice in discerning this. Is this a bad idea? I saw a list of professors that one is to contact if they are declaring a neuro major-- perhaps they wouldn’t mind giving me a bit of pre-declaration advice?</p>

<p>P.P.S – Would these programs care as much about GPA as medschools? Of course GPA is important, but is it on the same level of insanity?</p>

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<p>^Always a great idea to get to know people in the field. I’d send them a friendly and polite email explaining your situation (no need to go into this level of depth…lol) and ask to set up a meeting to talk about your options.</p>

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<p>Yes, of course. They are all busy and don’t owe me a second of time. I would be sure to just send a very short message asking if they could either meet with me to discuss my options or refer me to someone who could do this.</p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

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It depends how on how your school structures its neuroscience program. At D2’s undergrad, neuro is a track within the biology dept. You can’t double major in neuro and bio because it’s the same major. At other schools neuro is a track within the psychology dept, in that case a you would be able double major in neuro and bio.</p>

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<p>In most PhD driven STEM fields, a master’s something you just kind of get along the way to your PhD. (Engineering is the big exception where a MS is often a terminal professional degree.) Often a master’s seen as a consolation prize for students who don’t qualify into the PhD program. (cf “qual-ing out” or failing your qualifying exams)</p>

<p>In biology fields, support is uncommon at the master’s only level. You will be expected to fund your master’s yourself thru loans, whereas in direct entry PhD programs, you will be paid (usually via a RA or TA) to go to school.</p>

<p>Post-doc pay depends on the program. Anywhere from $45K-$75K. (Though the guy who’s getting $75K is in Geneva which has an insanely expensive COL. He can barely afford his miniscule apartment on his salary.) Whether that’s enough for a comfortable lifestyle will depend on how much educational and other debt you’re carrying, the local COL, whether you’re supporting a spouse/family and how you define “comfortable.”</p>

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<p>Impossible to tell. PhDs in biological fields are in huge oversupply and have been for at least a decade. </p>

<p>Take a look a this editorial in Nature Neuroscience [Supply-side</a> academics : Article : Nature Neuroscience](<a href=“http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v10/n11/full/nn1107-1337.html]Supply-side”>Supply-side academics | Nature Neuroscience) </p>

<p>Also take a look at this article in The Economist [Doctoral</a> degrees: The disposable academic | The Economist](<a href=“The disposable academic”>The disposable academic)</p>

<p>I know of some success stories in getting on the TT train, but I know of more failures.</p>

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<p>Neuro majors from D2’s school go into PsyD, OT, SLP, PA, veterinary and nursing programs. They also go into educational and neuropsychological testing and counseling fields. They work as rehabilitation specialists, care coordinators for neurological injury patients, case managers, clinical study coordinators. They work as research assts and lab techs at medical schools, hospitals and universities. They work in medical and pharmaceutical sales. They go into human resources and hiring. And just about any other job that a liberal arts major can fill.</p>

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<p>Not in the same way. Grad programs are more interested in your research experiences, your LORs, and your upper level major GPA. Pretty much in that order. Some grad program do use GPA as a screener. Generally a sub 3.0 GPA will get you screened out.</p>

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<p>Thanks again for the response, I greatly appreciate all of your help. I don’t know, it seems insane that one can go to school for so long, achieve publications etc. and potentially find themselves on the losing end of the job market. I guess it is a reality for anyone who goes to get a PhD but wow…</p>

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<p>The academic oversupply is nothing new. DH graduated from a Top 5 PhD program in his research field (physical sciences) 30+ years ago and it was true then too. Out of about 70 peers in that program, fewer than a dozen ended up in academia or full time basic research. Those who ended up in academia weren’t necessarily the brightest and most successful researchers either. There’s certain element of luck involved and a whole lot of politics. Doesn’t mean the others are unemployed-- they just aren’t professors or full time researchers. </p>

<p>D2’s BF is currently enrolled in bioscience PhD at a top 10 school. I jokingly keep telling D2 that it’s good thing she’s going to medical school since at least one of them will be employable…</p>

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<p>@Sykology,

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<p>Since others might read this thread, I can’t let this get by unchallenged. AP courses are fine with the vast majority of medical schools. I have no idea why so many people get this wrong. Where is the misinformation coming from? Guidance counselors?</p>

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<p>Plu,</p>

<p>The issue is that medical schools don’t accept AP credit per se. If the undergrad accepts it then the med school will but without the undergrad seal of approval (ie the AP class appears on the transcript in some way) the AP class means diddly. For example at Brown while we don’t get actual credits for AP, we get them on our transcripts solely for this reason.</p>

<p>WOWmom,</p>

<p>I believe you are mistaken on post doc pay (or the bump after first year is huge) but the NIH recommended 1st year salary is ~39.5k. The post doc system is absolutely criminal.</p>

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<p>"I believe you are mistaken on post doc pay (or the bump after first year is huge) but the NIH recommended 1st year salary is ~39.5k. The post doc system is absolutely criminal. "</p>

<p>The postdocs at NIH brainwash their interns not to do PhDs.</p>

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<p>Ouch! I was wrong! I’d assumed that biosciences get paid on the same scale as those in engineering and physical sciences. Apparently not true…</p>

<p>(At the National DOE Lab not so far away, post docs often start at ~$72+K. [Postdoctoral</a> Salary Guidelines](<a href=“http://www.lanl.gov/careers/career-options/postdoctoral-research/postdoc-program/postdoc-salary-guidelines.php]Postdoctoral”>http://www.lanl.gov/careers/career-options/postdoctoral-research/postdoc-program/postdoc-salary-guidelines.php) The one here in town starts post-docs at ~$80K.)</p>

<p>You’re just in the wrong discipline, Brown…</p>

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<p>Ok, just took a look at The Scientist’s 2012 salary survey. Biosciences really are underpaid, comparative speaking…</p>

<p>[Life</a> Science Salaries | The Scientist Magazine](<a href=“Life Science Salaries | The Scientist Magazine®”>Life Science Salaries | The Scientist Magazine®)</p>

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<p>Luckily most MD/PhDs don’t do post docs, we usually do research fellowships which pay more (50-65k)</p>

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<p>Don’t you get about 50k as resident after only Medical School without any PhD? I heard that even in our very economically depressed region of the country, this is kind of normal to expect for residency. It is not much, but one can live on this salary.</p>

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<p>Correct. MD/PhD is certainly not the route to go for financial reasons. All of the stipends and tuition waivers simply make the route possible, not lucrative.</p>

<p>Residents earn in the 40-55k range, a little less than a fellow but that salary is obviously the same regardless of MD or MD/PhD.</p>

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<p>I was thinking more like $45 to $50 for PGY1.</p>