Duke or Amherst for pre-med

Colleges and Universities A-Z Duke University
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Hi everyone! I’ve been fortunate enough to have been admitted to Amherst and Duke and I’m torn as to which is the best option for me. I also posted this question on the Amherst forum. (I’ve also been admitted to Williams–for right now I’ve tentatively eliminated it because of its extremely rural location. However, I’m definitely open to hearing arguments for Williams as well.)

I’ve done a lot of research on CC and other websites, and I’ve formulated my own opinions of these schools splitting up my analysis of these into two main umbrellas: academics and campus life/ college experience.

Academically, I am pretty set on the pre-med track. I know that Amherst has a very high pre-med admission rate into medical school (around 80-90% from the research that I’ve done). The stats are similar for Duke. Both are extremely high so I know that many students who started off wanting to do pre-med ended up not applying by the end. Does anyone have more insight into how this “weeding out” system works at Duke?

A potential pro for Duke is that undergraduates get opportunities to be involved with research at Duke’s medical center, which has an incredible amount of resources that Amherst might not be able to match, given its location in a small town. Because of Duke’s location in the research triangle and hospital/medical school presence, Duke might also be able to provide more summer opportunities volunteering or shadowing or working in the medical field. However, I’ve also heard that it’s hard for undergraduates to compete with graduate students in labs, and they can’t actually get meaningful research experiences that Amherst might be able to give.

Duke also has T-reqs whereas Amherst has no required courses. How hard is it to fulfill T-reqs? The foreign language requirement puts me off a bit.

A potential pro for Amherst is less of the competitive, cut-throat atmosphere that pre-med is infamous for, one that I hope to avoid as much as I can. From what I perceive about Duke, the culture there is competitive but it also isn’t close to being the worst out of larger universities. Can anyone tell me more about the pre-med culture at Duke?

Now moving on the (for me, slightly less important that academics) half of my analysis of these two schools: campus life/college experience. I think I prefer Duke on this one, though I will be visiting both which I hope will give me a better idea. Generally, I like the idea of a smaller school but I fear that Amherst will be too small, whereas Duke will be the perfect size. I like that I will be exposed to new things and that the student body has lots of school spirit. However, one concern I have about Duke is the prominence of greek life and social stratification, whereas Amherst strikes me as more of a collective environment, though I could be wrong. I’ve seen a lot of posts recently about this, which worries me. I also like the weather at Duke better. Overall, I do give Duke a bit of an edge in this part of my analysis.

Also, does anyone know about grade inflation or deflation at either school, given that GPA is very important for med school?

Thank you so much if you’ve read to this point! I appreciate any answers people can give to any of my questions, I just want as much information as possible before making my decision

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I can’t speak for Amherst and can’t accurately speak for Duke pre-med, as I’m not, but many of my friends are and I can give you more of an overview of Duke. Pre-meds at Duke have their regular major advisor and also a pre-med advisor. I have friends that have the Dean of Admissions for Duke Medical School as their advisor, so you can imagine the boost that gives you not just in applying to Duke Med, but any med school. So I would say the opportunities at Duke exist in many forms, not just in volunteering on the medical campus–though there are plenty of those too!

T-reqs shouldn’t be too hard for you to complete as a pre-med. ALP (arts classes) could potentially be a bit annoying if you really hate the arts and literature but SO many classes here are pre-med focused so there are a handful ALPs that are specifically geared towards pre-meds. Same for foreign languages (the higher-level FLs usually. But yeah, I would say the language can be a bit annoying. if you study abroad it’s much more doable and can be a lot of fun.

Duke overall isn’t competitive academically. Again, I can’t say among pre-meds what that is like, but a lot of them are pretty grade-crazy (though not all). Does that translate into a cutthroat culture? Not really. They seem much more collaborative than that. Duke is really great atmosphere to be in. Most everyone is obsessed with all things Duke which fosters a great collaborative environment among peers.

Greek life exists. If it’s something you don’t care about, it won’t bother you. I don’t venture into the Pratt side of Duke, though I have friends in Pratt. They have their lives and I have mine. I’m not occupied with what they’re doing and they’re not occupied with what I’m doing. I view Greek life the same way. It’s odd–I remember I was also scared of going to a school with a strong Greek life when I was in high school but I can’t even remember why. Now, I don’t really think about it except to say “oh yeah, that’s frat letter.” Maybe I’m just oblivious, who knows.

Grades: pre-med weed out courses like maybe Chem101, the Orgos, Multi, etc. are very much real, but they also exist at other colleges. I don’t believe we have grade deflation but every class is different. The largest complaint you hear is dealing with “flipped” classrooms.

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Thanks so much for your thorough response, allthelamps! Can you tell me a little bit more about the foreign language requirement? I actually like the humanities but I’m terrible at languages, and I want to take as little courses as possible. I have a 5 on the AP Chinese test, and from Duke’s website it said that I could wave two semesters and only take one semester of Chinese at Duke, is that true? And would it be hard to get an A in that class considering it’s a higher up Chinese class?

It’s good to hear that you can putt Greek life off to the side. I’m just a little worried that if I make friends freshman year and some end up going Greek while I don’t, does that mean that I probably won’t be close with them anymore, given the feeling of segregation? It’s not a huge concern, but I’d like to be able to be friends with anyone whether they are in Greek life or not.

Also, what are “flipped” classrooms?

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@cheescake Amherst alum here with a daughter who will start Duke this fall. With regard to Greek life, you should look at the flip side. Amherst has no Greek life. Amherst banned on-campus fraternities just before I got there, and they’ve been trying to fill that void ever since. When I was there, it was pretty cool. In an effort to minimize the impact of the fraternity ban, the college would sponsor multiple parties per week (called “tap”, in the old fraternity houses, now campus housing). These unifying social events were open to everybody and somehow beer was magically free and available (and plenty of people would go and not drink). Eventually the forces of temperance put a stop to that (after I had graduated) and a focused campus social life dispersed in several directions. Since then, off-campus fraternities have also been banned.

You should speak to current Amherst student to better understand the current status. For example, I’m told that various athletic teams have become de-facto fraternities/sororities. What does this mean for non-athletes? How might that compare to unaffiliated Duke students? You should ask.

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Hello - the premed culture at Duke is definitely not cut-throat. A personal family friend recently graduated from Duke as a pre-med and is now taking a gap year doing research in lab. About 200 Duke students each year apply to med school. There is some weeding out, but this is mainly due to natural attrition. From freshman year, probably about 300-350 kids state interest in medical school.

The health professions advisor at Duke has been recommending for some time that students take some time after Duke before applying to medical school. This increases the chances of getting into a good program. So most of the Duke pre-meds do a gap year. The Duke medical school curriculum is a bit different than other schools (1 year basic science instead of 2), so more opportunity in research. Many of the Duke undergrads find research opportunities in the labs in and around DUMC. There are plenty of opportunities. To see for yourself, go to the NIH website and compare Duke vs Amherst: https://report.nih.gov/award/index.cfm

You’ll see that there are abundant opportunities for research at Duke. Not just the medical center but also within the graduate schools, Trinity college, and Pratt.

Amherst is a great school as well. But it simply can’t compare to Duke in terms of research opportunities. Research is very important when applying to medical school. Its not the only factor, but it certainly can help pull your application to the top of the pile (assuming of course top grades and MCAT scores). I’m sure the Amherst students do well in med school placements. But you certainly can’t go wrong at Duke.

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I have no idea what Amherst premed stats are but I’d point out that it funds its own summer science research program on campus and amherst students do federally funded summer research elsewhere.

I’m curious how many premed undergrads work in the NIH research you list, @sgopal2 ? That could be a big plus for Duke.

Amherst also strongly encourages med school applications in senior year or later. Resumes are stronger then.

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I was pre-med at Duke, graduated in 2016, am taking a year off, applied, and has been admitted to med school for 2017.

Weed-out classes
I think most people would consider the big lecture chem and bio classes to be weed-out classes, but I can assure you it’s not designed to be that way. Yes, the classes are large, the material is difficult, and all of your peers will be brilliant, but none of those things add up to “weeding you out”. The standards are high - so for example, in the first intro bio class, to get an A, you will need a raw score of 94%+ (this will change every semester but the bar is usually that high).

Pre-meds who drop the track
I think word of mouth is that only 50% of pre-meds eventually apply to medical school. I know it sounds daunting, but I would sooner pay compliment to Duke’s curriculum in fostering well-rounded students than a competitive pre-med culture. Pre-meds at Duke are very driven, but they’re supportive of each other because everyone wants everyone else to achieve their dreams. The T-reqs exist for a reason, and a lot of people I know just eventually found other interests through these classes that they were more passionate about than being pre-med. Rest assured, not everyone drops out because they couldn’t cut it. Though if you do make a change halfway through, Duke is strong in a lot of departments and you’ll graduate with a solid education in any field. I actually hear that a lot of students pick Duke because it’s well-rounded and you won’t be stuck with the decision you made at 18 should you find that medicine isn’t for you.

T-reqs
I know that they are trying to restructure the curriculum, where the foreign language requirement might be no longer be a requirement. I’m not sure where they are in this process, though last I heard they were going to vote on it at some point? Sorry I don’t know more because I’m not there anymore but I could ask around if need be. I personally am a huge fan of the old curriculum and felt my humanities classes really helped me grow as a person. My experiences in my language classes were a huge part of my medical school application, so at the end of the day, your time at Duke is what you make of it. I made it my personal goal that I wouldn’t sacrifice my liberal arts education just to be pre-med, and I always tell incoming students to not view Duke as a stepping stone to medical school. It’s the only time in your life that is wholly dedicated to you and the person you want to become, so take advantage of it.

Research and clinical volunteering
There are so many opportunities for research, and faculty here genuinely likes to teach students. You literally just send out a bunch of emails to people you’re interested in working with, and sure some will never get back to you, but you’re very likely to get responses telling you to come in for a chat. It’s so easy to get involved (esp if you don’t care about getting paid to do research), and there’s a undergrad research support office that runs funded summer research programs. Most PIs are very enthusiastic and will get you on a project - I was never asked to wash dishes or do lab chores. They expected me to read science papers, ask questions, run experiments, go to lab meetings, and really get involved in what I’m doing. I’m not saying you’ll definitely get published, but I did have friends who were able to do that. Same with volunteering - hospital is on campus and there will be opportunities to get involved.

Pre-health advising
Pre-health advising at Duke is split into freshmen/soph and jr/sr. They are 2 different teams. The underclassmen advising I think could be better in that they tell you that you have lots of time to accomplish certain things but in reality you have much less time than you think. However, they are wonderfully supportive because they know college is all new and these kind of decisions take time. The upperclassmen advising is a lot harsher in comparison, but only because Duke is very serious in helping you get into med school, and they’ll tell you the good/bad news as they see it. It’s practical, slightly more stressful, but highly effective.

GPA
Personally I’d have to say grades are on the inflated side at Duke, which is wonderful. Having gone through the application cycle, having a high GPA is very important. I know you’re not thrilled about all of the side requirements, but honestly the humanities classes at Duke (if you can find the right ones), can really help pad your GPA. That said, I got like a C+ in organic 1 and a B in organic 2, but the MCAT went very well for me. Having a high GPA in college means very little if your MCAT score sucks. Med schools see the MCAT as an equalizer, so you really need to be successful both in the classroom and on a test. I felt the rigor of Duke’s science curriculum really translated into my high score on the MCAT, so while my science GPA is a bit lower, med school knows through my MCAT score that I know what I needed to know. On the flip side, a student with a 4.0 who bombs the MCAT shows they didn’t learn what they needed to in the classroom.

GPA is very important, only in that it will get one foot through the door. You don’t want to be “screened-out” during the med school app process, but once you are past the screen, your extra-curricular activities matter a lot more. For me, a big part of my app was my experience with DukeEngage, which was so transformative and really pushed me to continue pursuing medicine.

This post is quite long now, but I’d be happy to answer any more questions if there’s something I haven’t addressed. Just know that the school you pick won’t make or break you. Med schools don’t care where you went to school or what you majored in. You just have to be successful in whatever it is you choose. Good luck!

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@cheescake Sorry for the late reply, but in case you still need answers…

Foreign language requirement: You can get out of it by only taking one class if it’s 300-level. My friends taking 300-level Chinese say it can be tough, but they get As. Pretty sure learning a new language (Italian is easy at Duke, I’ve heard) would actually help you in med school admissions wouldn’t it?

Greek life: I didn’t experience that personally. Have friends both in and out of Greek life.

“Flipped” classrooms: You teach yourself the material ahead of time basically, then show up to class and do problem sets/other work. The reason a lot of people don’t like them is that you may not know that it’s flipped before enrolling in it.