Duke or Dartmouth or Williams or Amherst?

College Search & Selection
1

Hey guys,

I’m an international student who has been accepted to the above schools. I’m sincerely grateful for being accepted to the aforementioned schools, but I’m struggling to make a decision on which to attend. To be frank, for a large part I believe my indecision is due to confusion of what I truly want for myself, my education and my future, but I’m interested in the fields of public policy (perhaps focusing on the environment or education), international development, social innovation and entrepreneurship.

Aspects that matter to me include:

  • Feeling valued in the community
  • Access to funded internship + study abroad opportunities (I’m on full financial aid so extra costs matter)
  • Ability to/culture of spearheading innovative projects (whether entrepreneurial or community-based)
  • Employability and international reputation (I don’t know if I’m going to grad school)
  • Small class sizes, discussion-based (really don’t like large lectures)
  • Close interaction with professors
  • Ability to double major + certificate or special programs
  • Social inclusion with accepting ‘nice’ people
  • tbh, enjoy myself and not overwork and feel like I have to be productive/compete all the time

I don’t know if this is relevant but I’m also the first person to go to college in my family and I might need some hand-holding/support on this whole uni thing, at least in the beginning. Weather might also matter a bit?

Here are some superficial pros and cons I have identified (not sure if accurately) for each of the schools. One main problem is I am mainly going by the schools’ websites and I don’t know how ACCESSIBLE the opportunities are even if advertised.

Duke:
Pros – Many super exciting and relevant majors with dedicated centres/schools for public policy and environmental studies; Name/reputation; DukeEngage; Weather
Cons – Lost in large school (feels like a really big pond for a small fish like me); Not into sports/drinking/drugs tbh;

Dartmouth:
Pros – Seems very entrepreneurial; Ivy name/reputation; Internship opportunities; Dedicated centres
Cons – Drinking culture; Rural; Weather

Williams:
Pros – Majors available fit quite well; Special programs; High quality undergrad liberal arts education; Ability to take classes with post-grads in development economics
Cons – Rural; Weather? Most people back home don’t know any LACs.

Amherst:
Pros – Five College Consortium; they have been so kind to me and granted me a scholars program with A LOT of funding to do all sorts of independent research and study projects, even abroad; High quality liberal arts education; Feels like the nicest, most caring community (in what students have reached out to me so far)
Cons – Don’t know about the entrepreneurship and internship opportunities?; Quite limited majors to be honest; Most people back home don’t know any LACs.

I would truly appreciate it any one could kindly give me some advice/point out some things I should take into consideration in making a decision. Thank you!

2

I personally like Williams the best of those colleges for undergraduate education. It really doesn’t get better than Williams. I prefer a school with distribution requirements (Williams) to an open curriculum (Amherst) especially since you don’t know what you want to study. Williams has those great tutorial classes where you study with just one other student and a professor. Amazing! But you are in a more isolated location so if that bothers you Amherst is just wonderful too. I like how you can walk into town at either school, but the town of Amherst has more to offer. As for the 5-college consortium, I think Amherst students don’t make that much use of it. They mostly stay at Amherst. I personally would cross the other two off your list. I went to Dartmouth for graduate school. It has its wonderful attributes, and of the Ivies it does place more emphasis on undergraduate education, but I think the administration has huge issues and the undergraduates are not as happy or as well supported as those at Williams or Amherst in my experience. Congratulations, you have wonderful choices there.

3

Congratulations on some excellent acceptances. My son is a graduate of Williams (and considered Amherst) so that’s the one that I’m the most familiar with.

Aside from international name recognition (which I’ll address in a minute) Williams fulfills everything on your list. Its Environmental Policy major and Economics department tie in to the Center for Development Economics seem like the type of programs you’re looking for. Everything you’ve heard about small classes, nurturing professors who are there to teach and a collaborative academic environment is true and then some.

Winter can be long and snowy but the surrounding countryside is phenomenally beautiful. Williams kids have fun in the snow. They are, in general, a friendly and inclusive, and the entry residence system helps you start off with a ready made social group. The good thing about small town Williamstown is that there’s not much to spend money on so economic disparity isn’t an issue.

My son didn’t study abroad but many of his friends did – including at Williams’ Oxford program. All found summer internships in their fields of interest, and many were awarded funding for summer travel and research. Overall, 8 years after graduation, they’ve all completed graduate degrees at prestigious universities and settled into fulfilling careers. Their professors who knew them personally gladly wrote recommendations.

We are American expats who live in Asia and I have to say that Williams is mostly unknown here. Later when my son went to an Ivy League graduate school his prestige increased considerably. :slight_smile: Whether or not this is important to you only you can say. Without doubt Williams is known and respected by graduate and professional schools and employers in the US, but you may get blank stares when you mention the name in your home country.

4

CONGRATULATIONS on your truly excellent acceptances; you simply cannot go wrong with any alternative.

I respectfully suggest one of your Duke “cons” may be slightly inaccurate. Specifically, nether Duke (<15,000 total enrollment, including undergraduate, graduate and professional school students) nor Trinity and Pratt’s undergraduate size (<6,500 total Duke undergraduates) are “large” (to use your terminology). In fact, ~6,500 undergraduates is truly quite small in comparison to other National Research Universities (and even to some outstanding LACs).

5

Personally I think Williams sounds like the perfect school for you. Don’t be too concerned about the weather and location, it won’t be hard to adjust to both when you are immersed in all that Williams will be offering you both academically and socially.

6

Another definition of small vs. large may be whether or not a school is exclusively undergraduate-focused. By this definition, absolute – and even relative – numbers matter less. But not sure which LACs, also respectfully, have anywhere near 6500 students? Good luck to you, OP.

7

All great choices. You can’t really go too far wrong.

Don’t sweat the weather unless you really detest cold and snow so much you can’t deal with it for a few months. The snow in the northeast is pretty and atmospheric so long as you don’t have to travel in it (or shovel it, which you won’t, as a student), and spring and fall in the northeast are lovely and temperate.

8

Can’t go wrong with Williams or Amherst.

9

Can’t go wrong with Duke or Dartmouth!

10

Based off of your desires for a close relationship with professors, small class sizes, a lack of cutthroat competition between students, and access to internships/research opportunities, I believe either Williams or Amherst will be ideal for you. Don’t worry about impressing people “back home” with your college. They’re not paying your student loans (BUT you’re not either hahahaha!) so don’t worry about what raises the most eyebrows at the barbecue.

11

The public LACs tend to be somewhat larger than the private ones, even though everyone on these forums seems to focus on the private ones. These are among the larger ones:

Georgia College
Midwestern State University
Ramapo College
Sonoma State University
Southern Oregon University
SUNY Geneseo
The Evergreen State College
Truman State University
University of Illinois - Springfield
University of Mary Washington

12

I appreciate the different types of schools you listed; they very well may share some of the characteristics of classic LACs. However, USNWR lists them all as Regional Universities. Most of the schools literally in the National Liberal Arts Colleges category are in fact private.

13

Duke offers by far the broadest and deepest offerings in environmental science and public policy of your four options…but you already know that. All of your options are excellent.

I majored in earth & ocean sciences at Duke and absolutely loved it. The undergraduate program is relatively unpopular, so the faculty outnumbered the majors in the department. Undergraduates received lots of attention, and it was incredibly easy to get involved in research from the get-go. Virtually all of my classes had fewer than 15 students, and several had fewer than 10. Even better, a lot of them were fieldwork-based classes that got us out in the field looking at rock formations, fossil hunting, examining beach erosion, etc. That was night and day from the biology department, which I found extremely large and bureaucratic for an underclassman. (Marine biology is a notable exception, however, as Duke practically flings money and resources at those concentrating in the subject.) I really can’t say enough good things about earth and environmental science at Duke, and the Nicholas School in general is a terrific resource, as are the Duke Forest (7000 acres) and Duke’s marine lab. I’ve written about this subject many times before, so look for my past posts like this one:

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/15303775#Comment_15303775

I’m less familiar with public policy. From what I’ve heard from majors in the department, it’s larger and not as willing to bend over backwards for undergraduates. I calculated the number of public policy majors at all universities a couple of years ago, and IIRC Duke has about twice as many public policy majors as the next closest universities (nearby UNC and Princeton). A go-getter can do exceptionally well in public policy at Duke, certainly. It’s especially worth noting that the program is part of Sanford proper and offers actual policy courses accordingly. Many undergraduate programs in “public policy” elsewhere are course offerings in econ, sociology, political science, etc. cobbled together with varying levels of success. That said, I think it is also much easier to slip through the cracks in a big, popular department like public policy.

Socially the four will be very different. As an LGBT student, small rural LACs were completely off the table for me. For students who greatly prefer the intimacy of a small college, they can be terrific choices. It all depends on what you want. Duke is small enough that you’ll run into a dozen people you know on your way to class but large enough that there’s lots of social niches. Since Amherst and Williams have <1/3 the undergraduate population of Duke, they’ll feel cozier.

For overall class sizes…

Classes with <20 students

[ul][]74.6% Williams
[]71.1% Duke
[]70.8% Amherst
[]61.8% Dartmouth[/ul]
Classes with 50+ students

[ul][]3% Amherst / Williams
[]6% Duke
[li]9% Dartmouth[/ul][/li]
If you decide to pick a LAC, I think the overriding difference between Williams and Amherst is Amherst’s proximity to a lovely if small college town and the 5 college consortium. The consortium is quite good for environmental science, particularly aquatic science. I’m not sure how its policy offerings stack up, but you’d likely have a variety of courses to choose from.

14

Congratulations - all four schools are outstanding and there is no wrong answer.

The above said, there are trade-offs.

Williams and Amherst provide an intimacy with professors that, generally speaking, will not be as easy to achieve at Duke or Dartmouth (except perhaps in departments that are off the beaten path as noted by @warblersrule). Having attended Swarthmore undergrad, I am a strong believer in LACs and believe the quality of education they provide to those who appreciate the more intimate environment with both professors and students (you will likely know everyone in your class and many across all classes by the time you graduate), to be the best possible.

The weakness of Williams and Amherst is that while their “brand” is very strong among US top tier employers and graduate schools, it is weak internationally. Since neither college is has a research centric model, the strength of these brands is also very unlikely to grow over time.

For my university age children, the choice ultimately came down to a top 3 LAC and Duke, and both chose Duke (for my daughter it was between Duke and Williams to apply ED for the class of 2019). My son chose Duke because he didn’t know what he might ultimately study and saw Duke as having a much broader and stronger base of offerings. He found it easy to fit in and find groups of friends despite having lived in Europe and Africa for a substantial part of his life, and having no interest in fraternities or inebriation. He went to Duke having no particular interest in the sports scene and has grown to really enjoy it. As much as my daughter loved Williams, what tipped the scales in favour of Duke was that she anticipates spending a substantial part of her life outside the US and values the international strength of the Duke “brand.”

Some final random summary thoughts:

  • I have always been extraordinarily impressed with Williams and the educational opportunities (I personally find it the most appealing undergraduate educational environment available in the US today) - but there are drawbacks - it is isolated and has a US-centric brand. The joint program with Oxford was particularly appealing to my daughter.
  • For whatever reasons I have never been particularly impressed with Amherst and it has a US-centric brand (although I do like the town) - however it is unquestionably an outstanding college.
  • Dartmouth is somewhat isolated and has a more fraternity/drinking oriented culture than the other schools on your list. Friends who have had children attend warned me off the school - particularly for my daughter. It also does not have the strength of offerings in the areas your are particularly focused on that are available at Duke. What Dartmouth does have is an Ivy League brand. However, as more of an LAC than a research university the brand is unlikely to grow in stature (particularly relative to Duke).
  • Considering the areas you are interested in, and your being an international student, Duke may be the best choice. Duke is a very well-recognised research university which continues to grow in stature (it is the strength of the research base that ultimately drives international reputation and strength of brand). The undergraduate is bigger than the other three, but not so substantially that you will get lost in the college (most of Duke’s student body size comes from the graduate school population, not the undergraduate). It is particularly strong in the areas of environmental sciences and public policy, and at least as strong as the others in the other areas in which you have interest.

Although it may not be practical in your case, the best way to choose would be to visit all and see where your gut tells you the fit is best.

Very best wishes with your selection. Whatever your choice, it will be a good one.

15

How does this “brand” mojo actually work in practice?
I’ve been out of college for years. In conversations with colleagues or friends, the subject of where we went to college rarely comes up. When I occasionally review resumes, the college “brand” (per se) simply isn’t a factor. Usually I’d be recommending someone based on a proven track record.

Are Europeans or Asians so different?

Are they that much more likely to hire you, or buy what you’re selling, or go out with you, just because you attended Duke or Dartmouth not Amherst or Williams?

I can’t imagine any decent graduate school making more of a Duke/Dartmouth degree than a Williams/Amherst degree, per se.

16

“I can’t imagine any decent graduate school making more of a Duke/Dartmouth degree than a Williams/Amherst degree, per se.”

It seems that internationals, particularly asians, are very high on ranking review listings tk. Duke/Dartmouth are going to be names many will know moreso than Williams/Amherst. The OP is from another country and I assume he/she will be going back home eventually to live/work. After reading his/her statement, I feel that Duke is the strongest choice. It obviously also offers the mildest winter weather.

17

@tk21769, in your rush to provocation you didn’t bother to read carefully. Within the US a top graduate school or sophisticated employer will look at all four schools being discussed roughly equally. In many regions (not just Asia) outside the US the “qualifications” of a prospective employee or candidate for promotion often carry as much or more weight as their performance. I attended Swarthmore, which is a virtual unknown outside the US and carries no weight, whereas my graduate degree from Harvard still easily opens doors internationally decades after having received it. Yes, the rest of the world differs meaningfully from American in many substantive ways. That said, it is naive to think that a degree from an elite institution does not substantially impact the hiring, promotability, and graduate school acceptances of an individual in the US as well. Given a choice of hiring or promoting the decision is virtually always made for the person with the stronger credentials, unless one of the candidates is measurably superior to the others. Why? Because the risk to the decision maker is lower if the person fails (it’s the old adage regarding why people used to buy IBM).

18

OP, you seem more suited to Williams or Amherst, and you have been given some great observations about the differences between them on this thread. Not that Duke and Dartmouth are not top notch! But you express indecision about career path, so a smaller setting with lots of faculty attention might help. You imply being more comfortable in a smaller pond; the LAC environment sounds like a fit.

I just want to say that you sound like you will probably go on to grad school, in which case you can always go for a bigger “brand.” I think your grad school degree will be more what you use for opening doors. I like to look at undergrad as a place where students also grow as persons – and come into their own. So the environment really helps, if simply bc it makes you happy. The one thing pointed out previously re Williams and Amherst (both of which I would love for my own kids) is that Amherst has a college town and the 5-Colelge system. Williams tho is Williams. :slight_smile:
So there you have it. A nice difficult choice to have to make!

19

The only significant drawback I see regarding Amherst is the collegiate gender imbalance in the area. Other than that, I think the range of opinions on this thread has covered the salient aspects of these schools.