Duke/Penn

Colleges and Universities A-Z Duke University
21

Not saying everybody wants WS/banking/consulting but I got the impression the OP indicated leanings that way, but perhaps I misinterpreted. Plus, that’s a good way to determine prestige since those types of firms and industries and prestige obsessed. I, too, see some similarities between Duke and Dartmouth, but I view Dartmouth as more LAC-like, whereas Penn and Duke are research behemoths. I see Penn and Duke getting similar student bodies that are largely preprofessional. But reasonable minds can differ.

As far as why engineering and economics is a popular double major, I’m not sure, but I’d guess that those who are particularly analytical and are interested in finance think it prepares them well with learning problem solving abilities in engineering coursework and some theoretical economic knowledge backing that up. It’s certainly not an easy double major, but if you succeed in it, you’ll learn a lot of valuable skills that top companies covet (and THEY view that double at Duke as a huge asset).

22

Penn and Duke are more similar to each other than Dartmouth is to either of them.

I’d pick Duke over Penn CAS for the following reasons:

  • Smaller size (more emphasis on teaching) as reflected in the US News ranking of "best undergraduate teaching" http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/undergraduate-teaching (Duke is top 10, Penn isn't)
  • No competition with Wharton for jobs. Why would employers hire at CAS when they can hire at Wharton instead?
  • Nicer campus (I've spent a lot of time on both campuses and I don't think it's even close but this is obviously subjective)
  • Better sports (may or may not mean much to you but it does unite the student body!)

Also, forget about all this Ivy league nonsense. Over half of the students who have been admitted to both schools choose Duke over Penn. http://www.parchment.com/c/college/tools/college-cross-admit-comparison.php?compare=duke&with=upenn

In fact, Penn is often mistaken for Penn State (a state school that is not nearly as selective as Penn is) while Duke has incredible prestige in the US and abroad due to its outstanding medical research and great sports programs.

The “lower” Ivies (not Penn necessarily) often use their affiliation as a crutch. It gives them an excuse to be complacent. Dartmouth and Brown would be fairly unremarkable schools if they weren’t “Ivies”.
Would you pick Dartmouth over Stanford because it is an Ivy?

This thread is being completely dominated by nonsensical statements made by Penn students. Duke was the only school in the US to allow muslim students to practice their faith in the open. It was one of the first schools to allow Palestinian activists to rally. Where are you getting this “Duke is intolerant and overtly religious” nonsense from?

Duke’s departmental rankings in certain disciplines may be marginally lower because it is a much more undergrad focused university (and departmental rankings typically focus on graduate school).

Also, I don’t know where the Penn students are getting their information from. Here are a few rankings of math departments (as an example):

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/search?subject=mathematics&name=

^ Duke is ranked 22 spots ahead of Penn.

Duke has more than twice as many Rhodes scholars as Penn does (the Rhodes is the highest award an undergraduate can receive)

http://www.rhodesscholar.org/assets/uploads/RS_Number%20of%20Winners%20by%20Institution_1_15_16.pdf

Duke has a significantly higher endowment per capita (without including the $1 billion that Duke is entitled to receive from the independent “Duke Endowment”)

Two Duke faculty members have been awarded Nobel prizes in the last 4 years. The last time a Penn professor won a Nobel prize was 14 years ago. http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/lists/universities.html

Duke has more highly cited researchers than any school in the world not named Harvard, Stanford, or MIT.

http://hcr.stateofinnovation.thomsonreuters.com/

Penn is a fantastic school but don’t let people attempt to convince you that Duke isn’t.

23

Okay- so there’s a lot going on here… some of which I’m going to disagree with

  1. Don't let Penn's size scare you. It actually has a lower student to faculty ratio (6:1) compared to many of its peers including Duke. Yes there is a HUGE focus on undergraduate teaching and the atmosphere on campus is VERY undergraduate focused. In Fact, Penn is one of the few Ivies to have a nearly equal number of undergrads and graduate students. If the quality of education were suffering in any way due to it's size, then Penn students would not have such outstanding post-graduate outcomes.
  2. There's not like crazy ~competition~ between Wharton students and students in the College. More students who want wall street specific jobs will simply go to Wharton because that’s where their academic interests are better served, so there is a bit of self selecting into the business program for many students who want to pursue those opportunities. But the College students aren't disadvantaged in any way, whatsoever. In fact, having Wharton on campus is a really great BENEFIT to students in the College seeking Wall Street jobs for the following reasons: A) Penn's One University Policy allows you to take classes in Wharton and to do research in Wharton which is an awesome way to make your application stand out among peers from other liberal arts schools. B) Some hyper elite wall street firms will only recruit at HYPS and Penn because of Wharton's presence on campus. However, because of Penn's One University Policy, ALL students at Penn regardless of the undergraduate school in which they're enrolled are given the same opportunity to interview with these firms. (http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-that-story-about-wall-street-hiring-based-on-college-ivy-league-schools-with-prestige-everyones-talking-about-2011-6) And I can attest from personal experience, they most certainly end up hiring Penn students from the College as well as from Engineering. So it is pretty disingenuous to insinuate that Wharton in some way makes it harder for College students to compete-- if anything it helps us quite a bit! And if you want to fact check, feel free to check out Penn's Career Services Senior Surveys:(http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/reports.php). You will find that Penn students across the board do incredibly well with Wall Street and that while fewer students are interested in Wall Street from the College (again, because most people interested in Wall Street self select into Wharton), grads from the College still outnumber many of their peers from other schools at the most coveted firms.
  3. Duke does indeed have better sports but Ivy League sports can be a lot of fun! These are really old rivalries that are a lot of fun to be a part of, even if they aren't going to lead to national titles. And Penn's rivalry with Princeton can be a good time (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn%E2%80%93Princeton_basketball_rivalry). It has waned in recent years a bit as both Penn and Princeton's dominance of the ivy conference has lessened but it's still fun to put on your "puck frinceton" tshirt and head down to the Palestra (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestra) for the historic game. The rivalry is pretty much restricted to basketball though it does extend to football a bit too. It won't compare to Duke's intense competition with UNC, but I promise it's a great time! And Penn football can be a lot of fun in general. We throw toast on the field and drink a bunch- it's nice!
  4. I've already mentioned my issues with Parchment and I've already agreed you shouldn't choose a school based on whether it's an Ivy or not. I think it's a little disingenuous to insinuate that being an Ivy doesn't matter at all. There is strength in the association of these 8 colleges that definitely disproportionately benefits schools without the reputation of Harvard. For example, in New York there are often "Ivy-Only" networking events and the Ivy League Alumni associations all have Club Houses next to each other in Midtown that partake in inter-ivy mixers. In fact for LGBT Pride Week, Penn and Yale co-host the biggest Ivy League Pride party in the city! The benefits of going to an Ivy are hard to capture. They are NOT a reason to choose to go to a college-- I want to emphasize that it should NOT be a determining factor. But it's not something you shouldn't simply consider among the many other attributes of a school's character. Being an Ivy is important to the campus cultures at each school. That's why every ivy newspaper publishes the admissions rates of the other schools, the endowments of the other scools, and many other points of comparison. And we report on the goings on at the other ivy campuses with great frequency as well from scandals to accomplishments of our Ivy peers. The 8 schools are connected and those connections extend well beyond your 4 years as an undergrad.
  5. Again, Penn is not often confused with Penn State, especially in professional communities. I've really had very few interactions with people who thought I meant Penn State when I said UPenn-- it just doesn't happen that often. And when it does, I simply correct the person because it’s not a big deal. I think it was more of a thing in the 70s and 80s when people outside of the nation's prep schools weren't really focusing on elite college admissions in the same way. In my lifetime, name recognition has never been an issue. And that's certainly true abroad where most people have heard of Penn but they aren't as familiar with penn state because of its comparatively lower international profile.

(continued on next post b/c of size limitations)

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  1. I've said what I will about departmental rankings. Again, I don't think you'll have a particularly different experience at one university over another if you felt like you were a better fit for one school with higher or lower departmental rankings.
  2. It's true that Penn has fewer Rhodes scholars but a little bit of historical context is important here. Penn as an institution did not prioritize Rhodes scholarships for the majority of its history. It was not a particular concern for students and it therefore wasn't a particular concern for the administration. In the 1990s, however, under the presidency of Judith Rodin, Penn put a lot of effort into building programs that would connect students to the Rhodes Scholarship and they have been incredibly successful. In fact, nearly 40% of Penn's Rhodes scholarships have been won in the 15 years that the new program has been in place (http://www.upenn.edu/curf/fellowships/recipients/rhodes-scholarship) while the other 60% were won over the nearly 100 year period that Penn didn't really prioritize these scholarships. If winning a Rhodes Scholarship is important to you, then modern-day Penn would be a really great place to go; absolutely comparable to modern-day Duke (http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2014/02/past-decade-duke-sees-fewer-rhodes-scholars)
  3. Endowment Per Capita isn't really a concern for students. Overall endowment size is actually far more important (I know, heresy! Blasphemy! -- but hear me out). It's not like universities take the endowment and split it up among all of their students and everyone walks away with a chunk. It really comes down to how they spend it and elite universities spend their money in nearly identical ways. For example, if you divide Princeton's financial aid budget by their total undergraduate enrollment, it comes out to about $26,000 per student while Penn's financial aid budget divided by its total enrollment comes out to about $21,000 per student (https://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S42/25/58M10/index.xml?section=featured) (https://news.upenn.edu/news/penn-announces-2015-16-financial-aid-budget-tuition). Despite the pretty large difference in the endowment per student ratio at Princeton and Penn, they spend almost the same exact amount on student financial aid per pupil. And those comparisons remain similar across the board. To have an apples to apples comparison you need to compare the specific budgets that actually affect student life and quality of education like financial aid budgets, student activities spending, and things of that ilk. The rest of that money is used to keep the university solvent and to build, build, build those beautiful campuses. That means that for the most part, the money these universities spend is spent in ways that equally benefit all students and a larger endowment can simply buy you more in terms of campus infrastructure.
  4. Things like Nobel Prizes are great. Though they won’t tell you all that much about the quality of research or education at a University overall other than to say universities that have produced a lot of Nobel Laureates tend to be pretty good. Penn has produced 28 and Duke has 11 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_by_university_affiliation) But I genuinely DO NOT recommend you put much stock into that because frankly it won’t affect your education and nobody but the people on College Confidential are counting Nobel prizes in their spare time.
  5. I hope you don’t take any of my points to mean that I think Penn is a better choice than Duke for you. Both schools are outstanding and you will be happy no matter which one you choose. Keep in mind that it is important to discern for yourself which of these metrics will matter. No matter what, I think it’s obvious that both have really passionate students and grads who would be happy to welcome you into their ranks ☺
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And finally, one last point, if you are interested in pursuing a double major between economics and engineering, it is actually possible to do a double major between the College and Engineering at Penn without having to enroll in engineering and without having to complete all of the engineering requirements. The two schools have cross-enrollment and major agreements that allow students in both schools to take advantage of majors in the other school without having to actually be enrolled in both: https://www.college.upenn.edu/major-options

It’s definitely a cool option if you want to get both majors but aren’t interested in being fully enrolled in a dual degree program.

26

^ Good substantive response.

I disagree with some of your points though. Most of the networking events that you’re describing include “Ivy Plus” schools like Stanford, Duke, MIT and Chicago (and specialized programs at schools like Berkeley and Michigan).

I’m not convinced that endowment per capita is less important that the size of the overall endowment. We will just have to agree to disagree. Also, Penn’s total cash and investments as of April 2015 were $11.9 billion. Duke came in at $11.5 billion. These figures are from the WSJ. Since Penn has 10,000 students more than Duke I think it’s fair to say that Duke is wealthier for all intents and purposes.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/for-u-s-universities-the-rich-get-richer-faster-1429156904

As far as Nobel laureates are concerned, it is widely acknowledged that awards won for work done at the institution in question are more significant. Penn has four professors who received their awards while on the faculty. Duke has two. However, Penn’s recipients won in 1972, 1980, 2000, and 2002. Duke’s winners are far more recent (2012 and 2015). Take that for what it is. Also, one of Penn’s laureates won for economics which doesn’t really count because the economics prize is not a “real” Nobel (only half kidding :wink: ) Also, one could argue that Duke only became a nationally recognized research university in the 1980s. So we didn’t really prioritize research until that point in time (I’m making the same argument you made regarding Rhodes scholars).

Duke also enrolls a higher percentage of National Merit Scholars. Just throwing it out there.

I have no problem with your rebuttal. Some of your peers were making it seem as though Penn is Harvard and Duke is NC State which is obviously not the case. Regardless of whether or not you’re a fan of the data from Parchment, that is our only insight into student’s preferences. We can all agree that the decision to choose Duke over Penn or vice versa will not make a significant difference in the larger scheme of things. Individuals who excel at either school will be in enviable positions at the end of their college careers.

Penn is the Ivy that is most similar to Duke in many ways but there are noticeable differences between the two universities. In an ideal world, the OP would be able to visit both schools and make a decision based on fit.

27

@NerdyChica thanks for your thoughtful response. I agree that OP would be best served by visiting both schools.

I unfortunately can’t read that WSJ article as it requires a login but i’ll take your word for it. That being said, I don’t think the data indicate that Duke is wealthier for all intents and purposes for reasons stated above- though i do think that they’re comparable (which I thought even before the WSJ article). But as you said, we’ll have to agree to disagree.

I do think Penn is as good as Harvard but I don’t think Duke is like NC State lol. I think the ivies and their peers are all pretty comparable at the undergraduate level and each campus’ unique qualities will make for a better or worse experience depending on the student who matriculates there.

Also you’re right, there are many “Ivy Plus” events but there are also a lot of “ivy only” events and specific inter-school alumni events that are exclusively for like “Columbia & Princeton grads” or “Brown and Cornell Grads,” etc. Having the Ivy Club Houses in New York so close to one another makes those cross-school events common and very easy. Though Duke grads can join the Cornell club because of an agreement between the two alumni associations. But some events will still be Cornell-only and a relatively small number of Duke grads choose to actually join the club. I also don’t know if they get the reciprocal club benefits across that globe that Cornell members get-- it’s something to look into. It’s not a huge deal but it’s nice being able to partake in these Ivy events. Additionally, if you live in the NYC, Philly, New Haven, Providence, or Boston metro areas you’ll be invited to watch your alma mater play the local ivy which is a lot of fun if you stay on the east coast because then you can tailgate with your friends like you’re in college again without having to feel guilty about not writing a paper or finishing your problem set :wink:

All of this is to say, go where you’ll be happy!

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@NerdyChica @PennCAS2014 Thank you!
According to what I’ve read, only a bachelor of arts is given at CAS in Penn, while Duke offers Bachelors of Science. Is there a big difference between these 2?

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^ Not really. Just a semantic difference.

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^Oftentimes, there is a difference. For Economics at Duke, for example, students have the option of a BS or BA. Getting the BS degree requires a couple more math intensive courses than the BA. Employers know the difference and realize the BA route is a bit easier by virtue of getting rid of some challenging courses in the curriculum. Although if an entire major/department/school only gives you the choice of a BA, not much you can do about that. I know LACs often offer BAs in things like biochemistry which seems odd, but that’s what they do.

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@bluedog Yeah that’s what I don’t really get. Why do I receive a Bachelor of Arts for a physics degree at Penn? Seems weird.
I can unfortunately not visit the schools, but I have basically made up my mind: I am going for Duke!

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^ You made the decision based on fit and not based on what your friends in Sweden would have liked you to do. That tells me that you have a good head on your shoulders! I’m sure that you will excel at one of the world’s great universities and go on to a tremendously fulfilling career. Congratulations!

33

It’s hard to go wrong with either school, but congratulations on your choice! Personally, I think Duke has as much in common with Stanford as it does with Penn in terms of its overall environment and balance.

Is your full ride to Duke need-based financial aid, or is it one of the merit scholarships like the Karsh International Scholars program? If the latter, that is another reason to favor Duke - the merit programs offer a lot beyond just financial aid in terms of mentoring and access to faculty and research opportunities.

Note that you can also transfer from Trinity to Pratt after 1 semester:

https://trinity.duke.edu/undergraduate/academic-policies/transfer-to-from-pratt

The Pratt website notes that:

http://pratt.duke.edu/undergrad/degree-programs/bse

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@NerdyChica Thank you!
@renaissancedad The full ride is based on need aid. Does that mean that I won’t have research opportunities at Duke?

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Not at all. I believe that such opportunities are very accessible, which is one of the advantages of Duke’s size and undergraduate focus. But the merit scholarships often provide an accelerated pathway to research opportunities.

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I’m not on merit aid, and I’m participating in a paid research project over the summer as a freshman. I’m also currently involved in a Cognitive Neuroscience lab, which is also paid. Research opportunities at Duke are ridiculously plentiful.

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Congrats on going to Duke!

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Thank you everyone :smiley:

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When I want to accept my offer, it says that my grade should be maintained or improved, otherwise the offer might get rescinded. Is this something serious? I am predicted 45 in the IB program, will my offer get rescinded if I get anything less than that? (Say 40 or 41)

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I think if you get two Cs at the end of the year you receive a “warning.” You’d need to fail or get multiple Ds in order to get your offer rescinded