<p>Most of these universities have either ED or EA and pretty much most of them accept half their class that way its not like one accepts 90% of their students early and the other 10%; they accept roughly equal numbers and so their yield and acceptance rate should be comparable.</p>
<p>earlier someone spoke of their friend who was valedictorian and thus excepted into duke but not into HYP because the ivies are looking at more than numbers..............well, so is duke. For the class of 2010, Duke admitted only 615 of the nearly 1500 valedictorians who applied. (and that's straight from Christopher Guttentag, Director of Duke Uni. Undergrad. admissions)</p>
<p>"on the contrary, laxmom, rather than highlighting the "bitter racism and sexism" of duke (which does not exist), this scandal merely highlighted the incompetency and liberal bias of the media. a poor black stripper/ prostitute with drug problems who was allegedly raped by rich, white athletes at an elite university in the south was naturally a field day for writers of such publications as the new york times, newsweek, and time. it was infinitely easy for liberals everywhere to quickly point the finger at the "out of control" duke students and show sympathy towards a (more credible?) african american "exotic dancer"; yet, what do we have now? a couple of negative DNA tests and constantly conflicting stories/ reports from the alleged "victim."</p>
<p>I completely agree with what you said, great post.</p>
<p>SO this is really interesting. We have a few people who just make blind assertions, but there are also a lot of people who seem to have thought really carefully about what makes a college "better" and then those who have taken the next step, of figuring out what makes a college "better" for them.</p>
<p>So, anyone game for starting a thread on what factors go into making a good school great?</p>
<p>It would also be really interesting to see a thread in which each person listed who they would rank as top five and then top ten schools nationally. (With all due respect, I can't imagine that Duke would be in anyone's top five... and surely not in everyone's top ten,...)</p>
<p>As for the original issue... well, I still question whether the racist and sexist epithets that surfaced would have been the same at a school in a different geographical area... and am a bit disappointed that so few of you can consider this issue dispassionately ("unaffected by strong emotion or prejudice").</p>
<p>lm07</p>
<p>Laxmom, I think racism rears its ugly face everywhere. I didn't follow the events of the lacross scandal at Duke, so I am not sure what happened. But the students I know who applied to Duke and their parents did follow the events and they were not impressed, which explains why none of the three students I know who got into Duke and had it at #1 this year ended up going there. </p>
<p>When I visited Duke 15 years ago (August of 1991...my how time flies!), I thought the overall atmosphere, particularly off campus, was slightly less tolerant than I would have liked, but my standards are very high. It wasn't so much that Duke/Durham was intolerant, but rather that other schools/towns I visited, like Brown, Cal, Chicago, Columbia, Cornell and Michigan, seemed more open and tolerant. In fact, I really liked Duke and applied there.</p>
<p>As for Duke making the top top 10 list, I would say that there are no clear cut top 10 universities other than Harvard, MIT, Princeton, Stanford and Yale. After those 5 universities, I'd say there are a dozen or so universities that can make a legitimate clam at being "top 10". Schools like Brown, Dartmouth, Duke and Rice on the one side and like Cal, Chicago, Columbia, Cornell, Michigan, Northwestern and Penn on the other side. But few people would argue against Duke (or any of the other school mentioned above) being a "top 10" university.</p>
<p>“Most of these universities have either ED or EA and pretty much most of them accept half their class that way its not like one accepts 90% of their students early and the other 10%; they accept roughly equal numbers and so their yield and acceptance rate should be comparable.”</p>
<p>Why look at yields if colleges can so easily manipulate the yields? Pretty much every person accepted under ED counts toward 100% yield. If you are going to look at yields, you have to look at the students who had a choice of whether or not to attend the university given a list of alternatives.</p>
<p>Fascinating! Tell me please why you put Rice and Northwestern into the class with the others? (NOT a dig of any kind, just truly interested!) Would others agree?</p>
<p>And, while MIT is clearly "top" for certain kinds of academics, I wouldn't rank it at the top for any kind of general undergrad education (and I know it pretty well...)</p>
<p>(And, at what point do the distinctions become matters of "taste"? I mean, clearly one will get a "good" education at any of these... but each education would also be distinctive...)</p>
<p>Northwestern and Rice are amazing universities. Endowments of $300,000+ per student, very gifted student bodies, excellent graduate school and professional placement, peer assessment scores comparable to those at Penn, Dartmouth and Brown, not to mention world class faculties and facilities in multiple disciplines. For example, Northwestern's Chemistry, Economics and Engineering faculties and facilities are considered top 10 in the US. Rice is not quite so strong in individual disciplines, but it makes up for it in other ways.</p>
<p>As for whether others would agree or not depends entirely on whom you ask. The highly educated elite would definitely agree, which explains why their peer assessment scores are so high and why their graduate school and professional placement rates are so impressive.</p>
<p>I was going to add more to my post from last night, but I was unceremoniously thrown out of the Hong Kong cyber cafe I was typing from...</p>
<p>AtomicFusion, I agree, I think the schools that have a legitimate claim to being better than Duke are Harvard, Princeton, Stanford, MIT, and Yale. Out of these, MIT is significantly different than Duke in many ways, and thus is difficult to compare. Still, I consider it better based solely on how talented the students who enter are.</p>
<p>Here I will talk about other things mentioned by you, and on this thread -</p>
<p>Duke only offers Merit Scholarships to about 25 students, or about 1% of its student body. Comparatively, you'll find Cal Tech offers scholarships to almost 5% of its student body. However, merit scholarships to 1% of the student body could be considered negligible. Thus, this really can't be a talking point.</p>
<p>On yield, you'll find the actual student body that enrolls at Duke is as strong or stronger, based on test scores and class rank, than Penn, Dartmouth, Brown, or Cornell. The revealed preferences ranking done a while back, which contains alot of info, makes it clear that the schools on the top tier of that order are HYPSM. Which means that students choosing between one of those and another school usually go to one of HYPSM. Say if Duke accepted a higher proportion of students that were also accepted to HYPSM, whereas another such as say Penn did not have as many students admitted to HYPSM also, than Duke's yield would be hurt more in that way because it competes with the highest schools in the pecking order. Chris Guttentag, director of Duke admissions, says that Duke loses out 75% of crossadmits to one of HYPSM, yet wins between 45-55% with Penn, Dartmouth, Columbia, and Brown. Thus, I could guess Duke's yield is low because it accepts many students who choose one of HYPSM over it. This only means that students that Duke accepts also get accepted to HYPSM with an increased frequency, but there is no solution to that besides rejecting the most qualified applicants (ie what most posters call Tufts Syndrome) or offering more merit scholarships (which of there are not many, as pointed out earlier.) </p>
<p>Also, Columbia, Penn, and Brown fill about 45-50% of its student body earliy decision, whereas Duke only fills about 30%, also significant, as an ED acceptange ensures the student will defientely come to that school.</p>
<p>Either way, yield on the US News rankings is only a minor component...I'm not sure what exact percentage of the total score it makes up.</p>
<p>Also, the WSJ feeder rankings are skewed because it only takes into account the top 5 professional schools of law, business, and medicine. However, a Duke professional school is not included in any of these 15 schools. Also, most of the top 5 professional schools are in the Northeast or Cali, none below the Mason-Dixon line. Thus, if the WSJ rankings are indeed skewed, I would assume they would favor Northeastern schools and the skew would be unfavorable to Duke. However, theres not enough evidence to support that either way. So either way, I think Duke's rank as 6th or 7th on the WSJ rankings is significant evidence that Duke students feed into top professional schools at one of the highest rates out of any undergrad (ranking below Harvard, Pton, Yale, Stanford, I think Columbia, and I forget what else if any). Thus, extrapolating from admissions rates into top 5 professional schools and assuming the data would remain consistent for, say, the top 10-20 professional schools, Duke is still one of the top feeder schools into top professional programs, just below the schools its ranked below US News. So, from this perspective, Duke is not overrated. </p>
<p>In terms of other US News factors, since my initial argument was to say that the Lax scandal wouldn't hurt US News too much, Duke's alumni contributions were record setting for the 05-06 year despite the Lax scandal taking place in early 06. So alumni contributions weren't hurt, but instead increased. However, in the long term they might be hurt. However, the current year was still the highest ever, so unless other schools also have had increases, I see this factor only helping Duke even more. However, again, I'm not sure how this is measured and how other schools stack up in comparison. </p>
<p>Also, a look at Peer Assesment. Duke's peer assesment is 4.5, while Brown, Dartmouth, and Penn have peer assesment scores of 4.4 or 4.3. Columbia has a PA of 4.6. HYPSM each have 4.8-5.0. Using just PA, the opinions of academics, Duke is only 1 or 2 spots too high.</p>
<p>Look over this evidence, I don't really think Duke is overrated on the rankings that much. I see it moreso ranking 6th or 7th. However, if you look at Duke's rankings over the past 10 years, its usually ranked between 6th and 7th, right on spot.</p>
<p>There, my treatise on why Duke is only slightly overrated, why not many schools have a claim to be rated or considered higher than Duke, etc.</p>
<p>I'll add more as I look over the rest of the thread (I'll be here for a while since if I leave I forfeit a prepaid hours worth of Computer time...darn Hong Kong).</p>
<p>From laxmom: "(With all due respect, I can't imagine that Duke would be in anyone's top five... ")</p>
<p>Have you talked to anyone that attends Duke? Have you talked to the 19,400+ students who applied there?</p>
<p>Have you looked at the information provided by Duke students and parents on the lack of "racism" on campus based on personal experience, NOT heresay? </p>
<p>With all due respect, I sometimes wonder where people get their information?
I also wonder why someone may be so adamant about denouncing a school that they may no nothing about. Without specific information, it is hard to understand. I personally value the opinions of those with personal experience.</p>
<p>should read: "that they know nothing about"....</p>
<p>hey! I went to Cornell -- which was perfect for me, but I wouldn't say that's in the top 5 either...</p>
<p>I wouldn't even venture to guess where Cornell would be ranked. I personally know nothing about it. I wouldn't make any speculations about the campus culture, or even wonder about racism or sexism there. It probably exists, but I have no idea if it does, nor would I assume it does or doesn't because of its geographic location! I have never visited the campus, or paid much attention to what others say about it. It has no impact on me or my family. My son had no interest at all in Cornell, nor would he judge the school on what his friends might think about it, or what a few individuals at the school may have been accused of. My daughter has no interest in Cornell. That doesn't mean that Cornell isn't in someone's "top 5". I would sure hope that the kids who apply to Cornell now, and those who currently attend the school consider it to be in their personal "top 5". If they don't, they will probably be pretty disappointed in their college experience!</p>
<p>just a question/clarification about the USnews ranking... the "peer assessment" category consists of a survey asking the university's president, provost, and admissions dean
[quote]
"to rate peer schools' undergraduate academic programs on a scale from 1 (marginal) to 5 (distinguished)"<a href="from%20%5Burl%5Dhttp://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/about/weight_brief.php#peer%5B/url%5D">/quote</a></p>
<p>...some people are predicting a drop in this category leading to a drop in Duke's overall ranking...but this survey rates academics, not administration, etc.... sure- officials at other schools may see some fault in duke's administration in the wake of the rape charges, but any such perception shouldn't affect duke's academic reputation, right?</p>
<p>Duke's Peer Assesment Score stayed the same at 4.5 according to the learked US News rankings, so people who think it would have dropped lower were wrong</p>
<p>You are right, most categories on US News such as PA are based solely on academics and not really campus social life so much, so the rank wouldn't change too much</p>
<p>The rankings actual use data a year old (pre-scandal). Either way, I don't think it'd affect the PA score.</p>
<p>Most people that apply to duke WANT to go because they're white preppy conservative southern kids. </p>
<p>Look at Notre Dame's yield. Why is it so high? The kids going are catholic and have probably dreamed about the school their whole lives (the movie Rudy). Same with Georgetown and other special schools like West Point and other southern schools known for preppiness like Vandy.</p>
<p>Duke is overrated and its yield is thanks to the fratboy southerners that drool about it for their whole lives.</p>
<p>Sternman, cmon, you are way off - Duke is 55% white...the biggest schools is shares students with are Penn, Dartmouth, and Columbia - meaning if would have somewhat similar students to those schools. If course, it is more Southern but not by much. If you want to add to any discussion, use facts instead of posting your opinions as realities</p>