Torn between these three schools. Princeton seems the clear first choice to my family and friends just because of reputation and prestige, but I don’t want to overlook the other two. I want to do Pre-med and eventually get an MD/MPH.
Obviously Princeton is amazing at everything, and they tout their 95% med school acceptance rate, but I also hear iffy things about them (no hospital, intense competition, weeding out) while Duke pre-med has a pretty good reputation.
Any reason I should be choosing Duke over Princeton (or Brown)? Would I lose something by overlooking Princeton?
Thanks in advance, gonna post this in the other two forums as well.
CONGRATULATIONS, these are splendid acceptances, and these three universities are among the best in the world (all will meet your needs VERY well).
Presuming affordability is essentially equal, it would be very difficult not to opt for Princeton (in my opinion, much less so for Brown); however, Duke has some advantages that are quasi-unique among these outstanding schools:
Duke’s medical establishment (the Med School, of course, but extensive research, clinical practice, and so much more) will offer some research medically-oriented opportunities that are would be unlikely at Brown or Princeton.
Summary: You have done extremely well, you cannot make a poor decision, and all three universities have distinguished, multi-generation records of preparing undergraduates for excellent careers in the medical sciences.
Princeton used to have a hospital within walking distance of campus (University Medical Center of Princeton), but recently the hospital packed up and moved about 4 miles away on the other side of Rt 1. This makes it VERY difficult to do any volunteering at the hospital as an undergrad, especially since you won’t have a car.
The research opportunities at Princeton are wonderful, but most heavily geared towards molecular biology and very little clinical work being done on campus.
Duke on the other hand has a world class medical school on the same campus as the undergrads. As an undergrad you can easily interact with med school faculty and work in their labs.
Also take a look at the Princeton grade deflation. I’ve heard they’ve relaxed things recently, but in the past it was very difficult to get a top GPA as a princeton undergrad due to steep curving policy.
sgopal2, there are 21 daily buses from Princeton University to the University Medical Center at Plainsboro - it’s a 15-20 minutes trip by bus and pretty easy to do (check NJ Transit Bus #655). Moreover, the new hospital is a vast improvement over the one in town - it’s a new state of the art facility, opened in 2012, that offers up to date equipment and opportunities.
Grade deflation at Princeton has been eliminated and research opportunities are available in all areas of science, including at the relatively new Neuroscience Institute. Princeton students have a very high acceptance rate into medical school (about 90% recently).
Duke is a wonderful school and I believe the OP would have a great experience there - I’m just trying to correct what I view as a few inaccuracies.
The NJTransit bus is indeed an option. However there isn’t much research going on at the UMPC at Plainsboro hospital. There are opportunities for you to do basic volunteer stuff at UMPC Plainsboro, but no decent research. You will surely have opportunities for research on the Princeton campus, but these will be limited to basic-science type projects. Although these can sometimes be impressive, you would be better off doing research in a lab with a more clinically oriented focus. The closest medical school is located in New Brunswick NJ, which would require a train or bus for you to reach.
Duke on the other hand would require you to simply walk across the street to find an entire hospital filled with clinical MDs with lab space.
Both schools are great choices, so you can’t go wrong.
Also regarding the Princeton grade deflation issue. It appears that grading has gotten a bit easier at Princeton between 1990-2000. However the mean GPA appears to be trending downward again after 2008 (from 3.36 in 2000 down to 3.28 in 2008). Source: http://www.gradeinflation.com/Princeton.html
Duke on the other hand, has had a period of steady upward swing in mean GPA. During the same period 2000-2008 if you were at Duke, the mean GPA rose from 3.33 to 3.44. http://www.gradeinflation.com/Duke.html
As you probably already know, getting a high GPA is critical to success when applying to med school.
Princeton has a very high medical rate acceptance and it continued throughout the years of grade deflation. Since grades will not be artificially deflated for any incoming freshman, I’m not sure of your point in looking at GPAs from 8 years ago.
While there are legitimate reasons to choose Duke over Princeton and vice versa (and by the way, I think that Duke is a terrific school), there is no evidence that Princeton’s GPAs have affected the acceptance rate of Princeton students to medical school. And, although I am not particularly knowledgeable about the specifics of medical school applications, I am extremely familiar with law school applicants, and I can assure you that top law schools, which also base acceptances in large part on GPA and LSATs, have taken into account Princeton’s grading policies when making decisions and Princeton students have not been adversely affected.
Three great options but IMO Brown for pre-meds is as close to a sure thing as you can find. Brown has more grade inflation, allows students to drop classes late in the term, and you can avoid taking classes outside your comfort zone. Brown is heaven for pre-meds who are forced to play the “GPA game”. For anything else go P>D>B. If you value balance go D>B>P.
@bud123 (re post #8): I would suspect that Brown’s "drop classes late in the term, and you could avoid taking classes outside your comfort zone’ might not be too appealing to Med Schools (or, for that matter, to employers, other demanding postgraduate/professional schools, etc.). In Medical School – and in real life, including practice – one is expected to perform with excellence in all areas, even those “outside your comfort zone.” Success isn’t supposed to be easy.
A relative of mine who graduated from Brown talks about the fact that back in his day, students would just intentionally fail a course if they thought they’d get a C or worse, because those automatically got expunged from one’s transcript, hahaha. Clearly, it’s not as ridiculous as that nowadays, but Brown definitely has the most “liberal” policies and flexible curriculum of any top school I know. For some reason, employers and grad schools don’t seem to mind all that much. Honestly, I think undergrad for med school is way blown out of proportion. A student who is smart and high achieving enough to get into Princeton would likely find great success at Flagship State U, let alone Brown and Duke (as they’d be at the top of their class). I would choose where you think you’d be happiest – that will probably have a bigger influence of your life and success. If you’re going by “prestige” only, I think it’d be hard to argue that Princeton doesn’t come out on top, but choosing for prestige only might not be the way to go in your situation. You really can’t go wrong. Congratulations and good luck!
My point is data show grade inflation works and Brown is the poster U for grade inflation. This holds true even when the grad school ADCOM knows a schools reputation. A below average student at Brown with a 3.62 GPA just sounds better than an above average student from Duke or Princeton with a 3.48 GPA. The worst situation for a pre-med student is to attend a grade deflation university and major in a grade deflation area of study. Again, a sociology or communications major with a 3.8 GPA just sounds better than a BME student with a 3.3. It’s not fair but it is reality for pre-meds. Pre-meds didn’t set the “GPA game”, they hate it, but they have to play it.
It is easier to achieve the GPA needed to be accepted to med school at Brown with little risk of getting “weeded out”. As for quality of education I would go with Duke and Princeton but the most important thing a pre-med program needs to do is help you get into med school.
@bud123 (re post #11): Isn’t the development a wide range of individual skills and attributes – ranging from broad intellectual curiosity, to specific pre-career abilities, to vital understandings of the world and civilization, to ethics/integrity/character, to a love of learning, and MUCH more – *“the most important thing”/i all undergraduate education, at all institutions (from distinguished to mediocre), should provide to all students, thereby equipping the youngster with the fundamental success-elements necessary for a happy, successful, productive, and satisfying life?
I believe it is, and at the top of my list are those crucial educational elements are the “ethics, integrity and character” attributes. If a kid at an esteemed undergraduate school like Brown (and s/he has to be extremely talented and hard working to matriculate there) learns (through the university’s policies) to withdraw from difficult situations after committing to them and/or to structure his life’s challenges to remain within his or her comfort zone, I suggest s/he has been taught some VERY unfortunate lessons. That’s precisely what you laud about Brown pre-med (see your post #8) and I could not more strongly disagree. I’m not at all convinced that this “scholastic slight-of-hand” increases Med School admissions rates even marginally, but were it to do so, is the potential price paid in vital, lifelong character traits worth it? I’m very skeptical that it is.
@midatlmom - grading matters immensely when applying to medical school. Law school is completely different. I personally know of several of my friends who were Princeton grads in the 1990s who didn’t get into med school. Things may have changed, but from the GPA trends above it doesn’t seem like its getting any easier to get high grades at Princeton.
I agree with @bud123, if the ultimate goal is medical school, better to graduate from Brown with a 3.62 GPA in sociology vs attending Duke or Princeton and graduating with a 3.48.
Assuming this exact same scenario (with a hypothetical MCAT total score of 30), this means a 64% chance of being accepted to medical school with a GPA of 3.62 vs 48% chance of acceptance with a 3.48 GPA. This is a difference of 16%. Source: https://www.aamc.org/download/321508/data/factstable24.pdf
I wasn’t aware of the grading policy at Brown. Indeed it sounds like heaven for a pre-med who needs a stellar GPA. I might change my mind and now argue that Brown is a better choice. I don’t know much about Brown other than its in the lovely town of Providence.