<p>I’m happy to agree with cptofthehouse–I just threw in the comment about where I went to make the point that I don’t have a personal stake in defending LACs as a significant part of the higher-ed system. :)</p>
<p>Amherst, Williams and Wesleyan form the “Little Three” among the “Little Ivies” that also include, Bates, Bowdoin, Colby, Connecticut College, Hamilton, Middlebury, Trinity, and Tufts. These are all well-known and prestigious schools in my neck of the woods, and, I would think, among those who know anything at all about quality schools, beyond the superficial focus on Ivies. Williams is certainly one of the tippy top schools on this list. I think of it as a top school, certainly on a par with Harvard or Yale but a different kind of choice in that it is an LAC.</p>
<p>Purple Titan, I cannot understand where you got the impression that Williams is a “tiny LAC that most people have not heard of or value.” None of my kids went to Williams or any of these “Little Ivies,” just to clarify I have no personal ax to grind here. These are among the top schools in the country and are quite selective. The education is top notch and the financial aid is reputed to be generous as well.</p>
<p>This discussion is going rather far afield from the original point about acceptance rates. I agree with Xiggi’s post #5 above:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>My D used her “ED wildcard” at Pomona and was accepted. She was sure of her choice so she is thrilled with the outcome. I don’t think that Pomona ED gives nearly the boost that Williams ED does. But D definitely got puzzled reactions from the rest of the high stats honors students at her school, who were all focusing on applying early to HYPSM. She also felt a little “prestige gap” on Monday morning when everyone at school fell all over themselves congratulating the kids who got into Harvard, Stanford and MIT, but just said “oh that’s nice” to D. But that feeling only lasted for about half a day. And I completely understand what Purple Titan was saying about most people not having heard of or valuing LAC’s. D is in a FB group for the newly admitted students and they’re been swapping stories about how none of their friends or relatives understand where they’re going.</p>
<p>My S is only in 9th grade, but having just gone through this process for the first time with my senior I can see the writing on the wall. My suspicion is that my S will be in the top 10% of his class–NOT in the top 10 kids. To me, that means his chances of getting into HYPSM will be extremely slim. This past week, I have seen some really top-stat kids get deferred from their dream schools. The ones who got into the Ivies tended to be extraordinary in some way. I definitely will be encouraging my S to think about ED at schools like Williams, Hamilton, and Colgate and not HYPSM. </p>
<p>Compmom, where is your neck of the woods? I’m going to guess northeast. There is a major thing on CC where people always project that “known in my area, among my socioeconomic class” equals “widely known.”</p>
<p>No, in vast swathes of the country these NE LACs are simply not well known among the general public. Hence - they don’t get the number of applications anywhere near the Ivies etc. But also don’t kid yourself that the average person could name all the Ivies either. </p>
<p>As I said, my D goes to Wellesley. It’s known among the people whose opinions I care about - those who are knowledgeable on higher ed - but to say that it’s “well known” among people in general? Not at all, and that’s even with a very prominent alum. </p>
<p>These LACs are a bubble. That’s no indictment of them. Patek Philippe isn’t as well known as Rolex but they are still fine watches. </p>
<p>@compmom, I agree with @Pizzagirl. BTW, I would say that the circles that I travel in tend to be much more highly educated than the population at large, so most folks I know would have an idea that Williams and Amherst are good colleges, but to most of the ones who aren’t from the East Coast and didn’t grow up with money (or know people who did), Bates is a motel and Colby is a cheese.</p>
<p>Just because the education at a school is top-notch doesn’t mean that most people know of it.</p>
<p>For what it’s worth, I never even heard of the terms “Little 3” or “Little Ivies” before coming to CC, and I applied to several LACs when I was in HS.</p>
<p>The general public doesn’t know much. Twenty-five percent of survey respondents don’t know the earth orbits the sun: <a href=“1 In 4 Americans Thinks The Sun Goes Around The Earth, Survey Says : The Two-Way : NPR”>1 In 4 Americans Thinks The Sun Goes Around The Earth, Survey Says : The Two-Way : NPR;
<p>Independent, private LACs may not enroll a large share of the nation’s students–but the model of small, discussion-based classes and a liberal arts curriculum is known to appeal to high-achievers.</p>
<p>Many state university flagships seem to claim their honors colleges provide a “small liberal arts college” within a larger university. I can find online articles about public universities recreating the LAC experience within the larger institutions with the avowed purpose of recruiting the students who would otherwise attend private LACs or elite research universities. <a href=“New complex elevates UMass honors program - The Boston Globe”>New complex elevates UMass honors program - The Boston Globe[/url</a></p>
<p>“The general public doesn’t know much. Twenty-five percent of survey respondents don’t know the earth orbits the sun.”</p>
<p>Too funny @Periwinkle. I think you are right. I have come to the conclusion that I give people far too much credit for being knowledgeable about many things. </p>
<p>I agree that LACs are not as well known as the national universities. But that is only one factor in the mix. Some of the best known schools are so known, not for their academics but because of their high profile in their sports. Few people recognize my son’s LAC, though it is well regarded in academia and locally.</p>
<p>My client base is well-off and well-informed. They’ve all heard of LACs and respect them as institutions, but that doesn’t mean they’re interested in attending. I encourage students to visit different types of schools before closing any doors, but I get a lot a groans: “That’s smaller than my high school!” This fall I had two students get into Middlebury and Wellesley ED. They knew what they wanted before starting work with me, though – it’s a tough sell if kids don’t have an intuition that an LAC feels right.</p>
<p>In context, I believe that the post about Williams that prompted a response was PurpleTitan’s #5: “Williams is a tiny LAC that most people have not heard of or value.” As I read it, this wasn’t actually intended as a negative by PurpleTitan, just to say that Williams was not attracting many of the international applicants who are seeking “top” US colleges, because they tend not to know about it (which is most likely true). But it could have been viewed as negative.</p>
<p>katliamom’s reply #16 contained the statement that SomeOldGuy found objectionable: “People whose opinion matters have heard of Williams. And they respect it; for very good reasons.” In context, I think it’s fine.</p>
<p>In fairness, SomeOldGuy, while you would value your grandmother’s opinion highly in many matters, I doubt that you would have gone with her opinion on the Jeopardy category “College Geography.”</p>
<p>Overthinking things–it’s what I do for a living. :)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Put a “C” in there and bump that “M” down a couple of spaces ;)</p>
<p><a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/lowest-acceptance-rate?src=stats”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/lowest-acceptance-rate?src=stats</a></p>
<p>That was 2013, things may have shifted slightly last year.</p>
<p>Right. I knew them for my kids’ college search because I’m from the Northeast. </p>
<p>I am not very familiar with LACs. How do they differ from Universities?</p>
<p>^^ Mostly that they do not have graduate programs, medical schools, law schools. The focus is generally on a liberal arts undergraduate experience. And most are very, very good at what they do.</p>
<p>Thank you, TPerry. I understand the focus on undergraduate vs. graduate studies. I was wondering if there are material differences in the education. For example let’s consider the same major for two students where one goes to a LAC and the other to an University. Is there a meaningful difference in the curriculum and level of rigor that the two students will face? Also will the the lack of graduate school mean that advanced students will not be able to take graduate courses as an undergraduate?</p>
<p>@AndreiTarkovsky It depends. Williams has circa 20 math profs. Students would likely be able to do an independent study at the level of a graduate course–if he or she ran out of course options. That’s one of the percs of a 1-7 faculty-student ratio. Students have had no trouble, relative to the Ivys, in gaining admission to the top grad and professional schools. A Williams grad has won the Fields Medal in math. </p>
<p>@OhMom2 I think a more accurate comparison comes from comparing SAT scores–among both applicants and enrolled stidents–rather than acceptance rates. There is a self-selection factor when it comes to applying to the top lacs. I would bet that there are fewer applicants that are below the averages and ranges for SATs applying to lacs than among universities or other schools that have acceptance rates lower than Williams. </p>
<p>Thanks, latichever. How would you compare on-campus recruitment opportunities? I should probably research this myself. Wonder if there is a book on LACs.</p>
<p>Book which I haven’t read “The Hidden Ivys” but Google about them too. </p>
<p>Just recalled that an internal report on Harvard education said something like: with our resources Harvard could be both Harvard–in terms of prestige, and Williams–in terms of education. </p>
<p>Re recruitment: some poster wrote that Harvard goes Goldman Sachs and Williams goes to J.P. Morgan. Williams has a legendary alumni network perhaps exemplified by my personal experience that if you wear an IVY sweatshirt no one will ask you about it but if you wear Williams, people will stop and chat. My wife is an alum, and years ago, we were walking through Paris with me wearing the sweatshirt and someone stopped us to talk Williams. </p>
<p>Classes also tend to be smaller at LACs. It’s almost impossible to avoid at least some large lecture classes at a RU. On the other hand, class offerings at a LAC aren’t as broad and some aren’t as frequent as at a RU.</p>
<p>Also, for fields where advanced research doesn’t require expensive equipment, independent research may be fine, though there is a reason why most engineering is taught at universities and specialized tech institutes.</p>