ED and Financial Aid

Parents Forum
41

<p>And lastly, from Princeton:
Twenty-four percent of the students admitted in the early decision round represent racial minorities, up from 23 percent in 2004 and 18 percent in 2003. The number of minority students in a class usually rises to about 30 percent after the regular decision round.</p>

<p>Though 58 percent of the Class of 2010 is currently comprised of men, Rapelye said the group's gender balance should become more even when regular decision applicants are admitted. Last year, 55 percent of early decision admits were men — a number that stayed the same after the regular decision round.(why the inbalance of male and female in ED...that is interesting, could it be sports)</p>

<p>58 Percent of the Ed admits at Princeton were men...that is odd to me, but hey, I am making all this up right/</p>

<p>The admitted students hail from 42 states and the District of Columbia. Twelve percent of admitted students are international, coming to Princeton from 26 different countries. One-hundred and seven students, or 18 percent, are legacies.</p>

<pre><code>Harvard, the only Ivy League school to report a drop in the number of applicants to its early program, accepted 800 students, or 21 percent of applicants, according to The Harvard Crimson. Unlike Princeton, which has a binding early admission program, Harvard offers a single-choice early action program.

Columbia admitted 582 students, or just under 26 percent of applicants, to its early decision program, the Columbia Spectator reported. Other top-tier schools have yet to announce their early-round numbers.
</code></pre>

<p>From the Herald Dispatch:</p>

<p>And if your teen will need financial aid, they shouldn't apply for early decision or early action.A college or university has little incentive to offer their top scholarship packages to those students.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=aF3i.7bU7Vtg&refer=us%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=aF3i.7bU7Vtg&refer=us&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Harvard College, the U.S.'s oldest educational institution, accepted the fewest number of students in 11 years for early admission as it prepares for what may be the largest number of applicants in its history.</p>

<p>Harvard offered admission to 812 students out of 3,812 applicants this month, compared with 892 out of 4,212 students last December, said William Fitzsimmons, Harvard's dean of admissions and financial aid, said in a telephone interview. Harvard's regular application deadline is Jan. 1.</p>

<p><code>You want to have a level playing field for early action people and the regular decision people because we had such a large number of applicants last year,'' Fitzsimmons said.</code>We just said to ourselves that if we have another big jump in applications, let's be certain that we're conservative in the early action period.''</p>

42

<p>I have seen people mentioning that Princeton offers are best. She received one yes decision from an ivy school. Because of Ed daughter applied in RD round to Princeton. We are waiting to compare the fin aid. To be honest financial aid awards are very important to us. Do you think the fin awards for need-based students from Princeton are generous?</p>

43

<p>
[quote]
I am stating that because of financial circimstances, students with money have the advantage over EQUALLY OR MORE QUALFIED students that need to do the RD pool becuase of finances. It is not envy. It is saying that if you have money, you have the chance to apply earlier in a smaller pool of people.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I really don't agree with this statement because at the end of the day it is about choice. while there are indeed athletes, legacies, URMs in the ED Pool I would be pretty safe in guessing that they are not all full freight payers.</p>

<p>I am by no means well to do or a full freight payer, but a parent whose child applied RD mainly because she had no clear first choice for ED. However, her applying and being admitted RD did allow us the "luxury" compare packages did put us in a position to successfully negotiate aid because Dartmouth met the FA package offered by Williams (saving us thousands of $$).</p>

<p>If a student applies to a school that only uses the fafsa an no other additional forms, your FAFSA efc is pretty much going to correlate to the EFC at any college that uses the same criteria.</p>

<p>Some colleges give you a lot oaf information is you are willing to ferret it out. If a school has a common data set, the give you the information right there in black and white there regarding :</p>

<p><a href="http://www.dartmouth.edu/%7Eoir/pdfs/CDS2005_2006.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.dartmouth.edu/~oir/pdfs/CDS2005_2006.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The methodology that they use to determine FA</p>

<p>Number of students who applied for need based financial aid </p>

<p>c) Number of students who were determined to have financial need </p>

<p>d) Number of students who were awarded any financial aid </p>

<p>e) Number of students who were awarded any need-based scholarship or grant aid</p>

<p>f) Number of students who were awarded any need-based self-help aid </p>

<p>g) Number of students who were awarded any non-need-based scholarship or grant aid </p>

<p>h) Number of students whose need was fully met</p>

<p>On average, the percentage of need that was met of students who were awarded any need-based aid.</p>

<p>The average financial aid package. Excluded are any resources that were awarded to replace EFC (PLUS loans, unsubsidized loans, and private alternative loans)</p>

<p>Average need-based scholarship and grant award</p>

<p>Average need-based self-help award (excluding PLUS loans, unsubsidized loans, and private alternative loans)</p>

<p>Average need-based loan (excluding PLUS loans, unsubsidized loans, and private alternative loans )</p>

<p>average per-borrower cumulative undergraduate indebtedness</p>

<p>As stated in one of the other postings, if a family has a pretty straight forward financial situation (they don't have their own business, multiple dwellings, ex-spouses, stepparents, load of cash in the bank or home equity) they pretty much have a good jumping off point as far as how much school A, B, C , D will cost them out of pocket. Give or take some $ there is going to be some discrepancies among schools that use the profile, and schools that use a consensus model.</p>

<p>There are parents who run their numbers through the various FA calculators and they find that there EFC is X amount of dollars. The rest is about doing research and with a calculator you can back the numbers out to see where you stand.</p>

<p>For ex: (individual mileage may vary)</p>

<p>the cost of attendance at Dartmouth was $44,634</p>

<p>IF the average aid package is 29,921 </p>

<p>44634-29,921 = 14,713 ( The average EFC including the student contribution from summer earnings/assets) 29,921 was the demonstrated need.</p>

<p>Aveerage self help aid $4201. if the max subsidized loan for a freshman is $2650 (you can check this on finaid.org) , then 4201- 2650= 1551 (work study)
In this case,
29,921-4201 = 25,720 in grant aid.</p>

<p>A student with a demonstrated need of 29,921 who had 100% of their need met would have a package as follows:</p>

<p>2650 Loans 13.3 %
1551 work study 5.18% work study
$25,720 grant aid 85.95 % grant aid.</p>

<p>I think the Rub could be in the $14,713 EFC (if your family does not have or cannot afford to pay the EFC, it really won't matter if your apply ED or RD because unless you come across a pile of $$ your situation is not radically changing). </p>

<p>Some parents are willing to bite the bullet take on the debt, make the sacrifice, while others tell their kids to look at a wide range of schools (including those that take only the FAFSA and those that offer merit aid). At the end of the day it is still about choice and what works for you and your family.</p>

44

<p>*On Dec. 8, 398 high school seniors received their first present of the holiday season when their early decision acceptance letters from Dartmouth College arrived in the mail. The students -- 199 males and 199 females -- represent an exceptionally talented group of the country's most qualified high-school students, according to the Admissions Office.
Thirty percent of the applications were granted admission, filling nearly one-third of the future freshman class. </p>

<p>The majority of accepted students hail from the Mid-Atlantic, while many others come from New England and the West Coast, a geographic trend that has held true for the past five years. Twenty-four students live outside the U.S. and 19 are non-U.S. citizens. Fifty-nine percent of those accepted attended public school, while 38 percent attended private school and three percent attended parochial. In a slight drop from last year, only 60 of the accepted students were legacies. *</p>

<p><a href="http://www.thedartmouth.com/article.php?aid=2006010501010%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.thedartmouth.com/article.php?aid=2006010501010&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

45

<p>From Blomberg</p>

<p>Because financial aid typically isn't offered to applicants until March or April, less-affluent students often don't have the option of seeking an early decision.</p>

<p>Read the posts articles, my points are backed up in numerous places</p>

46

<p>i am saying it may be about choice, but those with the financial means often have a much smaller pool of appicants, Harvard picked 30% of ED applicants, and how many do you think need no financial aid whatsoever, probably a much high precentage that in the RD pool, so money is giving a leg up</p>

<p>and I find it interesting that we get all kinds of stats from the schools, and stats about kids who need FA from the general Acceptance pool but not alot of information with regards to FA applicant acceptance in the ED pool, or applicants for that matter</p>

<p>we get how many that applied that requested FA, but not how many of THOSE were accepted ED</p>

<p>that stat is not available</p>

47

<p>"I have seen people mentioning that Princeton offers are best. She received one yes decision from an ivy school. Because of Ed daughter applied in RD round to Princeton. We are waiting to compare the fin aid. To be honest financial aid awards are very important to us. Do you think the fin awards for need-based students from Princeton are generous?"</p>

<p>Stockmarket, Princeton has no-loan policy for its most needy applicants. Harvard does not expect any contributions from families earning less than $40,000. That makes them very generous among generous schools. </p>

<p>By the way, the mention your "Ed daughter" brings up a reminder that if you daughter was ACCEPTED ED, you do NOT have the luxury to wait for the RD results. If you accept the ED offer of admission, you HAVE to withdraw all other applications immediately. </p>

<p>Playing games with your ED acceptance could result in its rescission and the forced withdrawals of your other applications from the schools that respect the offers of other schools. </p>

<p>PS This is the reason Chinaman's son did not apply ED but EA.</p>

48

<p>I think that stockmarket's D got into harvard, EA</p>

49

<p>"Read the posts articles, my points are backed up in numerous places"</p>

<p>CGM, wth all due respect, can you please stop bludeoning us to death with all your copy/paste and links. I believe that you remain oblivious to the fact that you are simply restating the obvious. Rest assured that this board knows about the statistical differences between ED and RD. Most of us have heard of or read the reports and the books of Avery and Fairbanks. Go and get it at your library!</p>

<p>If you believe having uncovered a smoking gun, let me assure you that the powder was very, very wet. </p>

<p>If you have a novel rationalization to offer on the subject, we'll be all ears.</p>

50

<p>Xiggi :</p>

<p>"She received one yes decision from an ivy school. Because of Ed daughter applied in RD round to Princeton. "</p>

<p>After a lot of thinking daughter applied to H in EA round. Because of fin aid need, daughter did not apply in Ed to princeton. She applied in RD round to Princeton. Sorry for not being clear about it. And yes you are the one who clarified before anyone else did it to us about this EA and ED thing. I should be thanking you for that.</p>

<p>God forbid if the fin aid is not through she may go to Duke or Chicago which have given very good indications.</p>

51

<p>It would be helpful to have some data to compare ED financial aid and regular round financial aid at the elite need-only schools, but I take it that doesn't exist because of the nature of the beast. Kids that get in ED never have a chance to know what their regular FA would have been and vice versa. For upper middle income people, especially those with more than once child, the breakdown of whether or not aid will need to be repaid weighs heavily. In other words, knowing you have to pay your 30K efc is one thing, but not knowing whether or not you have to repay the 15K balance of need is another.</p>

52

<p>Stockmarket, it seems that your daughter -and you- will be in a wonderful position. </p>

<p>As you know, Chinaman's son Princeton's package was better than Harvard's. You may want to check Princeton's online calculator as soon as you get the details from Harvard.</p>

<p>PS I did not mean to put you on the spot. :)</p>

53

<p>


</p>

<p>Yes, very generous. S3 was accepted ED to Princeton; the finaid was better than FAFSA estimate, better than computed by the Princeton's web calculator, and better than that offered to S2 by a private college. No loans, of course; but EFC itself was lower, too.</p>

<p>It would be very interesting to compare Harvard's and Princeton's finaid offers in your case: I suppose that H's will include loans (Perkins and Stafford), but who knows...</p>

54

<p>cgm:</p>

<p>While I may concur (or may not) with your premise, we need FACTUAL data to review it in context.</p>

<p>The links in your posts are supposition by the authors. Moreover, some of them are just plain wrong: "Bloomberg: Because financial aid typically isn't offered to applicants until March or April..." Absolutely incorrect: ED programs that I have seen provide a provisional award with the acceptance letter (or shortly thereafter). Heck, they HAVE to, otherwise, a student could not commit, based on finaid offered.</p>

<p>Herald Dispact: If you student needs finaid....should not apply EA.." wrong again.</p>

<p>Your references from P-Ton, H and Dartmouth have absolutely zero data points relating to the economics of the families or finaid, nor do they address the supposed "weaker" pool. Or, are you inferring that boy appllying to P'Ton are rich, so they can apply early, whereas the Daughters of America are poor, so they wait until the RD round. :)</p>

55

<p>It seems that as always some people confuse the concept of "need" with "want".</p>

<p>A family that NEEDS a good financial aid is a family that does not have other resources to draw on. There is no rich grandparent lurking in the background, or newish SUV parked in the driveway that can be sold to help with this year's tuition, no winning lottery ticket that has yet to be cashed in. There is just the bottom line of what they need to make ends meet.</p>

<p>If there is a simple, uncluttered financial situation.... then it doesn't matter. As I have said time and again... most families don't have it so simple. Divorce & remarriage, self employment, partnership interests in businesses, home equity -- are all factors that make it difficult to predict EFC. (Partnerships often report paper income on the K-1 that is not in any way paid out to the partners and does not reflect their actual income)</p>

<p>The fact that Princeton or Columbia was very generous to X family that applied ED does not change the reality that Y family has no clue what Princeton or Columbia may offer and is not in a position to enter a binding obligation without knowing in advance what the cost may be.</p>

56

<p>"As stated in one of the other postings, if a family has a pretty straight forward financial situation (they don't have their own business, multiple dwellings, ex-spouses, stepparents, load of cash in the bank or home equity) they pretty much have a good jumping off point as far as how much school A, B, C , D will cost them out of pocket."</p>

<p>Not close to our experience at all (unless you consider $40k in grants, and $17.9k in loans close. - and we had none of the above conditions)! But, granted, the plural of anecdote is not evidence.</p>

57

<p>Yours, too, Mini--and how much of that was merit aid? :)</p>

58

<p>After just reading the posts for over a month, I finally have something to say. My son applied to Cornell ED because he was low average in the stats for the school. I was warned that financial aid was not good with ED but since he wanted Cornell so badly (was actually only school he applied to) we felt that he had a better chance with ED.</p>

<p>He was admitted and a few days later we got our financial aid notice. He will be taken out 5k in various loans and work study. I need to come up with 12K and the school gave him a grant of 26K.</p>

<p>I couldn't believe it. I would have had to pay more if he went to our state schools. </p>

<p>So, if the child is set on a school and is not on the high end of the stats, I would recommend ED.</p>

59

<p>"Yours, too, Mini--and how much of that was merit aid?"</p>

<p>In the few cases where there was merit aid, it simply replaced "need-based" - the only difference was that in the accepted offer it was figured as a percentage of the tuition, rather than an actual amount, so it rises with tuition inflation.</p>

<p>I don't know (and will never know) whether the offers would have been different had she applied ED. But I am very, very glad indeed that we didn't try to find out.</p>

60

<p>so Smith is $57K?
that seems pretty high
thats almost as much as what we paid for our house!</p>