<p>pyewacket - How many of the other schools on your Ds list would be significantly cheaper than the current #1?</p>
<p>Just remember, the reality of taking on the burden of tuition becomes a lot more real in April than now. We had no state residency as well so most schools my son looked at were privates. Many have merit scholarships and came through with them in April. Since he was a musician he couldn't even contemplate applying ED. His first choice wouldn't allow it anyway because of this. One other thing, your residence outside the US is a major plus. That said, even in our case where my son played a specific instrument, had specific goals in mind, he found several great places to study. Have you and your daughter really searched for alternatives to love so your daughter is not pushed into applying ED?</p>
<p>I guess I'm curious if your D has a specific interest in mind, that can best be found at only few schools.
Also,why is this one school a stand-out?
perhaps with more specifics, my advice would be genuine</p>
<p>Even though ED might give my son a slight edge, I am more interested in giving him more time to make a choice --and I am truly not sure ED gives as much advantage as you think. Sometimes, it is a disadvantage...if the student will have any additional accomplishments as a result of the later app, it all comes out in the wash. When you factor in the widely variable financial offers, it is clear to me what to do in my situation. While financial considerations are not everything, to say they are NOTHING (which is what you are saying in applying ED) is, to my way of thinking, a wealthy person's option.</p>
<p>"While financial considerations are not everything, to say they are NOTHING (which is what you are saying in applying ED) is, to my way of thinking, a wealthy person's option."</p>
<p>First of all, it's not saying they are "nothing". It's saying, "we'll deal with them." This is not necessarily a wealthy person's option. It's an option of priorities. I could say that a good school system, a larger than tiny house, private school, new cars, expensive clothes, summer programs, etc, are wealthy person's options, because if we'd paid for those, we couldn't pay full fare for college. </p>
<p>We made a lot of choices along the way, but weighing the cost was always a part of the equation.</p>
<p>My D is a US citizen but not a state resident--we live overseas. All her serious choices are almost equally expensive. The only way she is likely to get significant merit aid would be to move down a notch or two in selectivity, but this also means accepting a less challenging and probably less stimulating environment--this only applies to her relative safety schools where she is near the top of the applicant pool--all her top choices are more or less "equal" academically but the front runner offers some features academic and social that make it preferable but also more selective.</p>
<p>I would also assume that the very top of the applicant pool-unless they have a clear top choice dream school-- do not apply ED because they don't need so much "boost" and are the obvious likely recipients of competitive merit award offers.</p>
<p>I expect we would qualify for some "need" money but probably not as much as we really need!</p>
<p>We have done a lot of research, made multiple visits to all campuses in question, and my daughter has clear geographic limits and preferences on where she will consider going at all--so new input or change of heart is unlikely. She is also not the self-confident, extroverted, flexible type who could be happy and make friends almost anywhere --I suspect "fit" will be very significant in her adjustment to and enjoyment of college life.</p>
<p>I feel one important issue here is one of choice. Your D can choose to apply ED and then have to accept the finaid package which goes with it, one which may include no merit aid and be heavily weighted towards student loans and work-study at near minimum wage.</p>
<p>Or she can choose to go the RD route and then be required to choose among multiple acceptances and multiple finaid offers. In this case shie might be able to negotiate a better finaid offer with her first choice college. And she may be able to choose between high loan choices and acceptance offers with lower loan obligations.</p>
<p>Also, how does your D feel about her choice putting a "dent" in your retirement savings?? Our son did not want to do this and although he did have a substantial college savings fund, we did decide early on that he would be responsible for tuition and books. And he researched tirelessly for colleges likely to offer significant merit aid. If you haven't seriously discussed this in detail with your daughter you may be surprised to find out that she will be more than willing to eschew her ED choice for one which will impact you retirement far less.</p>
<p>Keep in mind that most students who are open minded about their college choices are ultimately happy whereever they attend, as long as the choices are within reasonable limits, say a Kenyon vs Amherst rather than a local community college vs JHU. Students who have a feeling of entitlement are more likely to be unhappy with anything other than their first choice and have a "grass is greener" attitude if that first choice does not pan out.</p>
<p>From the sound of your posts, it seems clear that your D does not have feelings of entitlement and will be comfortable with making choices even if her first choice might not be an option if she goes the RD route.</p>
<p>Pye, just a few comments on you most recent post.</p>
<p>You state, "The only way she is likely to get significant merit aid would be to move down a notch or two in selectivity, but this also means accepting a less challenging and probably less stimulating environment." This is a widely held attitude that fails to hold much water. I submit that a student at WPI can be as equally challenged as a student at Cornell and a student at K'zoo is as equally stimulated as a student at Amherst. Heck, I found the undergrad coursework I took at Ohio State as challenging as the graduate coursework I took at Cornell and we are certainly talking about a couple of notched between the perceived differences in these two universities.</p>
<p>College students can challenge themselves in very many ways, by choice of major, by choice of electives, by depth of study in their major, choosing a dual major, by choosing supposed "weed out courses" that others avoid like the plague, by doing undergrad research, by choosing a college which requires a senior thesis of all its students, etc. And they can be stimulated outside the classroom by judicous choice of EC's, student study groups, attending colloquia, etc.</p>
<p>MY son was in the top quartile of his college's applicant pool and even so, was greatly challenged frosh year. He enrolled in an unique interdisciplinary which requires a senior thesis. In addition, the cogsci department holds a biweekly luncheon seminar for undergrads/faculty which he atrtended and sponsors an evening seminar which is open to all cogsci students but is a requirement for their FYS course. His compsci department has weekly colloquia open to all students featuring speakers from their faculty, industry and universities from around the world. He attended a few of those which seemed interesting, though he did have a hard time following the presentation and Q&A afterwards. And he did wade into the dreaded DSA weed out course spring semester, surviving to tell the tale. And no, the phrase "grade inflation" is not opperative yeilding to the beloved "Tute screw".</p>
<p>I only offer these specifics to illustrate the challenges students can seek out and which are available at most colleges, even those situated down a notch or two.</p>
<p>By the time an applicant receives the ED decision, she or he is pretty far down the road in terms of emotional commitment. It appears, in August, that one could opt out of an ED offer should the financial aid package fall short, and no doubt some applicants find themselves in this painful position. However, the first few months of senior year are an admissions pressure cooker. The decision to apply to the ED school will be reinforced many times over. Walking away from an ED offer will be much more challenging than than it appears at this point in the process. There will be a lot of pressure to celebrate and run with the ED acceptance. Giving up the first-choice ED school ("bird in hand") for April's "birds in the bush"? The applicant will be more unwilling to walk away, and the parents will be more likely to decide to scrimp if that's what it takes to make it happen. </p>
<p>Have you seen the TV commercial in which the teenaged son rushes towards his parents with a letter in his hand, exclaiming, "Mom, Dad, look, I got in!!"? While the mom embraces him, the father gets a glazed look on his face and says like a zombie, "Ivy League". The father keeps repeating the phrase "Ivy League" with a stunned smile as he puts a for sale sign on the car, by the mailbox, etc. </p>
<p>Much better to make the decision up front rather than mid-process.</p>
<p>"The only way she is likely to get significant merit aid would be to move down a notch or two in selectivity, but this also means accepting a less challenging and probably less stimulating environment." </p>
<p>Could be true...but...keep in mind that, statistically, the difference between a 1200 and a 1400 SAT score is $100,000 in family income. The differences between the two schools may, in fact, be there, but the more obvious differences are likely to be socio-cultural ones, rather than those related to challenge and stimulation. (And could go the other way as well - I don't think there's anyone who could reasonably argue that Berkeley is less challenging that the Ivies, for example, and most folks will tell you the opposite.)</p>
<p>This past April a student in my son's class got off the wait list to his first choice school. It had more status than others he had applied to and it was a big deal to the kid and his parents. When I saw them at graduation, instead of being so happy for the change in their son's "fate" they seemed bowled over by the cost saying that their daughter who was 4 years younger would have to go to beauty school because of the tuition at this school. The luster of any school goes grey in the cold hard light of expense. That was all they could talk about. There was no joy in what should have been a joyful time because of poor planning. </p>
<p>My son is also an American citizen overseas and I spent many sleepless nights trying to help him figure out how to navigate this mine field of being able to afford going to college. I had spent everything on his "education" up until this point. I spared no expense to help him learn so many skills beyond school. I am a single parent with no child support.</p>
<p>He chose a couple of reaches, a couple of matches and a couple of safeties. You know the funny thing: in the end, the safeties didn't give as good of money as the matches and reaches. Maybe because they knew my son wasn't going to be attending there; that we had sold him a bit short due to financial angst. Into this mix was music school admissions.</p>
<p>To top it all off, he applied to scholarships within the schools if they offered them and several outside scholarships. He got a big one. I think it took so much energy last year from both of us to make it work. He got his first choice, his ego bolstered by making good decisions on where to apply, and almost a free ride to school.</p>
<p>Maybe the good thing was that he didn't apply to top ivy league schools because they didn't have the music he needed. It was lucky really. But in retrospect he may have gotten into some too if he had applied. He wasn't truly interested. </p>
<p>You don't want to sell your kid short, you want them to be happy and in a good school. The selections are vast. Money does matter in the end. Take your time right now and think it through.</p>
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<blockquote> <p>means accepting a less challenging and probably less stimulating environment>></p> </blockquote>
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<p>I'm sorry, but I do not agree with this. There are some fabulous schools that "fly under the radar screen" and provide a very challenging and stimulating learning environment.</p>
<p>Thumper1 and originaloog make a very good point. And there are some real benefits to being a star at a less-selective school vs. #1,147 in the pre-med pool at an Ivy.</p>
<p>BTW - You do not give up your option to negotiate an aid package when you apply ED. But it's sort of like a binding arbitration situation.</p>
<p>IF you are going to have to go with a private school the cost you are considering isn't 160 thousand vs. nothing. It is more likely to be 160K verses 140K or 120K....over 4 years. so you are looking at an extra, what? 5k - 8K per year? </p>
<p>Only you know what kind of pain that will cause you...No once in a life retirement cruise, one less retirement cruise, inside room vs. balcony....or living in a shelter.....Some parents have a line drawn in concrete and they let thier kids know....I have even heard of parents offerring a zero interest loan to their kids with the promise of repayment in the distant future....</p>
<p>As for great schools vs. prestigious....there are a lot of great schools that are less known but deliver a great educational experience. I agree with several posters from above that ED statistics can be very misleading because they include the people with hooks...legacy, employee, sports and special talents and usually the most dedicated students.</p>
<p>for some students it is easier to get accepted in the regular round. ED is not the right strategy for everyone, EVEN IF money is not an issue.</p>
<p>Momofdzt, can you explain which students find it easier to be accepted RD? Thanks.</p>
<p>I think she probably is thinking of students whose records are improving from beginning to end of high school, who may have had poor grades as freshman or sophomores. It would be important for these students to show excellent grades during the first half of senior year.</p>
<p>originaloog,
I agree with you that students can challenge themselves and find stimulation at many colleges not in the "top tier" of selectivity. But from personal experience, experience of my friends, and experience of students I have taught, there is a difference to the overall learning experience when your classmates are mostly high-achievers with dedication to intellectual pursuits and when they are more concerned with their social lives, sports, and just getting through courses to earn a degree. You find both types of students almost everywhere --also at Ivy League schools, but in some cases one or the other group determines the dominant campus culture--this plays more of a role at smaller LACs (where my D is applying)--at big universities, like OSU,almost anybody can find a peer group.</p>
<p>Pye, thanks for replying to my post. However, ever the contrarian, I feel called to respond to your comments about a dominant campus culture. Having spent 40 years of my life as a student and academic, I submit that it is difficult to identify a dominant campus culture, at least at universities. Student come from such diverse backgrounds and have such diverse interests, campuses are blessed with many campus cultures. </p>
<p>Now not having any personal experience with LAC's I do not feel so qualified to offer an opinion in their regard. And BTW, I think LAC's are wonderful places for many perspective hs students and are under appreciated in general. But lets take a look at athletics, perceived by many to have a great impact on a college's culture, oftentimes in a negative sense. My alma mater Ohio State, along with its sister Big Ten universities are perceived as having a significant sport related culture because of football. However OSU fields 35 athletic teams whose rosters account for about 4% of the student body. Therefore the impact of the student athlete on the campus culture is quite minimal.</p>
<p>Now lets look at Williams College, a wonderful LAC with a great academic reputation. Williams fields 37 teams whose rosters account for a whopping 40% of the student body. But Williams doesnt offer athletic scholarships so it doesnt matter that there are 10 times the percentage of students involved in intercollegiate athletes. Well hold on for a minute. Looking at some additional statistics indicate otherwise. The average gpa at Williams college in 1999 was 3.34 according to official records. Of the 680 varsity athletes, 568 failed to achieve a gpa of 3.2, which while not earthshatterig, is significant enough to ask the question of how athletics impact the culture of the college.</p>
<p>If you want to learn about the impact of college athletics at our most selective colleges read "The Game of Life" And in a follow up study focused on highly selective LAC's the authors found "About three-quarters of recruited male athletes in high-profile sports and nearly two-thirds of recruited male athletes in other, or "low-profile" sports, are in the bottom third of their classes at those schools."</p>
<p>All I am suggesting in this rambling post is that conventional wisdom about the campus culture can sometimes be erroneous.</p>
<p>originaloog,
I think we are drifting off-topic here, but just wanted to say that we are "limited" by what we have personally experienced. I dropped out of my first LAC and ended up at a quite different one where I was much happier. The difference was not really in the intelligence of the students but in thier priorities-- I had friends at both places and also people with whom I had nothing in common-- but in a small student body I felt happier where academics, cultural opportunites, and a range of political opinions were well-represented rather than on a campus dedicated 24/7 to political activism , the counterculture and furthering the "revolution" --this was the 60s, after all. I am not and was never a conservative but I discovered that I wanted an education stressing the traditional humanities rather than an endless stream of multimedia events with strobes and incense. Other CC participants who have transferred have told similar stories with more contemporary details about "culture" clashes--I'm thinking of Hanna, for example, who left
Bryn Mawr.</p>
<p>When I think back now to how large my college years loom in my memory and influence on my development-- I still feel that "fit" can be worth paying for--if you are fortunate enough to have the choice and idiosyncratic enough to strongly favor one environment over another.</p>