ED strategy for LACs (Williams, Amherst, Bowdoin, Middlebury)?

Applying to College
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Sorry for not following up on my post over the last 24 hours or so! I got sidetracked and then saw that there were a ton of comments. I really appreciate all of the feedback.

There were several common comments and questions, so in no particular order, I’ll try to address them here (apologies that this will be a long post!):

  1. On "rejecting" the schools she's not thinking of applying ED to - After our east coast tour, she didn't dislike any of the schools. She actually liked each of them in their own way. One problem with tours is that they always show off the highlights - the tour guides were all friendly, the campuses beautiful, and students seemed to be happily going about their activities. There were some subtle differences between the schools that we knew about before the trip from reading guidebooks in advance, but their similarities far outweighed their differences. For most schools, the visit consisted of an info session, tour, and her sitting in on a class. There was one school where the tour guide rubbed my daughter the wrong way, but she wasn't sure if that was reflective of the entire school or just that she happened not to like that one person. Students at Bowdoin and Colby were especially nice to her, but again, just because no student at Wesleyan went up to her to talk to her after the class doesn't mean that Wesleyan students are unfriendly.
  2. On having visited and liked Amherst - Even though we visited Amherst, it was our shortest visit - just a tour, not even an info session (though usually there's a lot of overlap in terms of info you'd get on a tour.) She didn't have a chance to interact with any students or sit in on a class like she did at several of the other schools. One reason for this is that at the time, she didn't think she had any chance of getting in. She had worked hard on the SAT and maxed out at around 1460 - not bad, but not solid by Amherst standards. No matter how many practice tests she took, it seemed like that was more or less her number. Almost on a whim, she decided to take the ACT and just crushed it on her first attempt. She also had started out the semester somewhat poorly, so she was preparing herself for a hit to her GPA, but she was able to turn it around and got all As and 1 B+ that semester. So at the time, she actually looked kind of sad during the tour, looking at something she knew there was no way she could ever have. Knowing that her stats are much more solid now - and also knowing that Amherst is interested enough in her to waive the application fee, I'd like her to be able to visit once more.
  3. On what culture she's looking for - Last night I posed a few questions for her to suss out how she feels about the differences between the schools. In no particular order:

a) Consortium vs. none - Slight preference for being part of a consortium due to having more variety of classes to choose from and being able to benefit from the social scene at other schools. That said, she prefers a bit of geographic distance between the schools (short bus ride) rather than across the street, since she doesn’t want it to feel like her school is just one section of a larger campus. That said, being part of a consortium is not super critical.

b) Near city vs. middle of nowhere - Slight preference for being a couple hours outside of a major city. Far enough that people aren’t frequently leaving campus to explore the city, but close enough to access if there’s something really interesting going on.

c) All liberal vs. mixed politics - She would prefer to be in a place that has intelligent people who disagree with her. (She obviously wouldn’t want to be in a place with racist alt-right types.) She mentioned that she frequents online forums on political issues, and when everyone agrees with everyone else, the environment can get quite toxic

d) Sports - I already knew this, but she’s not an athlete and doesn’t care about sports. That said, she doesn’t mind that a lot of these schools have a lot of student-athletes. Her bigger concern would be going to a school like USC or Ohio State where the star athletes are treated like gods and they don’t contribute to the academic community. She’s assuming the athletes at these schools are going to these schools for their education first and foremost.

All of this suggests Amherst to me, but I could be wrong.

  1. On her chances of getting in + diversity - Several comments were very encouraging, saying that since she has such great stats and ECs, that she should apply to all of these RD and she'll be able to choose from several options. Others have pointed out that there are LOTS of people with comparable stats and ECs, so it won't be that easy. They also point out that being half-Asian doesn't really add much of a diversity bump and could even be a negative. My personal opinion has been aligned with that more pessimistic view, especially prior to applying the diversity fly-in programs. I was actually quite surprised that Williams, Amherst, Middlebury, and Haverford expressed interest in her. In fact, I was concerned that applying to the diversity fly-in programs might turn them off - since they might think she was trying to game the system by using her race to work her way into a program that was clearly made for underprivileged students. She was planning on applying to 1-2 of these schools RD as a reach just in case she lucked out, but since they've gone out of their way to show interest in her, the idea that she might have a shot suddenly seems a little more realistic. That's part of the reason for applying ED: if there's a shot, she wants to maximize it.
  2. Why isn't Haverford on the short list for ED? Did she not like it? - She really did like Haverford, including the focus on self-governance, etc. Probably the main reason it wasn't on the short list for ED is that the consortium schools are geographically very close (closer, I believe, than Amherst is to its consortium partners but farther than the Claremont colleges are to one another) and it's maybe too close to a major city. She wants to be at a place where students tend to stay on campus and not head out into the city during weekends.That said, she really liked Haverford and would be very happy there. It's just that in terms of whittling down her choices for ED, some arbitrary points tend to make or break things. Of course, Haverford was the only school to invite her to the fly-in day, so the experience may completely change her view.
  3. She should do an overnight visit at Amherst, Williams, Middlebury before making a decision. You can afford it! - I totally agree she should, and it's not a money issue per se. (Though I want to clarify that we're not super rich or anything. Paying full tuition for both of my kids will wipe out the majority of my non-retirement savings. My income is just high enough that we won't qualify enough for financial aid, but it's low enough that paying full price is painful. It kind of sucks that only in this instance, Bill Gates and I are considered to be in the same wealth category. :) That said, this is exactly what those non-retirement savings are for. College was a very transformative experience for me, so I want to make sure my kids can have the best experience they can get and graduate debt free.) The bigger challenge is time. Especially since we're on the west coast, travel time alone will eat up about a full day, and there are no school holidays between now and 11/1. She'll be missing 2 days of school for Haverford. I'll talk to her about missing a couple days of school for 1-2 of the other schools, but I don't know if it'll work with her schedule. I'm pretty sure Williams would require its own trip, but it might be possible to do overnight stays at Amherst and Middlebury during one trip
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@dla26 If your daughter has any questions or concerns about Amherst, I’d be happy to answer them for her, which might help her decide to ED or not. From what you’ve written, it sounds like she’d be very happy here, but the other schools would be good options too.

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Thank you, @glittervine! I’ll DM you!

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One more update: I just checked Amherst’s website, and they don’t have a way to register for an overnight stay. I’m wondering if it’d be a good idea to write to the diversity fly-in committee and ask if it could be arranged, or if that would get on their nerves?

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Amherst and Williams are just an hour and a half apart, Midd is 3 from A, and more than 2 from W. Driving.

All are lot harder to get to and from without a car, though Amherst is close to Amtrak (in Northampton) and buses run regularly to Boston and NYC (speaking to the “2 hours from a city” preference - Boston is 2, NYC is 3).

Back in the day when I toured Middlebury we took a People Express flight from NYC :smiley:

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I didn’t realize they were that close! I should have checked. I just had this image in my mind that Williams was about 5 hours away from everything. :slight_smile: Middlebury is about 2.5 hours away from Williams as well.

If she hit more than 1 school, I’d probably go with her and rent a car.

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dla being a half Asian girl is no help with admission and might even hurt. Unless you name gives it away you are probably better off not disclosing. While each of these schools is slightly different both W and MB are far more rural and isolated while A is in a medium sized town and much closer to urban areas. MB has its own ski lift which appeals to some while W has by far the best art museum of any LAC. All the schools are rather progressive and you would have to think about Carleton or CMC to find a top school that has any significant conservative balance. W is always ranked # 1 but the quality of eduction is similar.

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Does the Asian bias extend to Japanese students ? Isn’t it mostly directed at Chinese, Indian & Korean students ?

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@Publisher I’m glad you mentioned the no-ED approach. Our S is applying to the four mentioned schools and more LACs and only doing RD. His scores and grades and ECs are strong and he doesn’t have a favorite right now. He’s also still trying to figure out what he may want to major in. He’s been pretty undecided but he’s starting to feel like he can eliminate a few subjects now. We know there will be an edge in ED (even after taking into account athletes) but he’s willing he o risk it to see how the chips fall in March.

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The bus ride criteria is interesting. Here is the reality. Schools in consortiums where the schools are physically close get a lot more cross registration due to ease of scheduling & logistics. You have to schedule in travel time with a bus, so students take advantage of the benefits of the consortium less often. I think schools still feel pretty distinct in the “close” consortiums (eg, Haverford/Bryn Mawr or Claremonts).

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@dla26 I think you are overthinking the diversity thing. Lots of high stats kids who are not URMs get invited to those weekends. S19 is as white bread as they come and was invited to Williams, Amherst, Carleton, and Pomona for diversity visits. I called Amherst just to see what was up and it ends up they invite a lot of high stats kids. They think maybe he made it over the hurdle because we are in the Midwest. (That, of course, does not explain the Carleton invite). He did not apply to any of them. I assumed he would not get in. So, my point is that your D was probably invited because of her ACT score, not because she’s half Japanese.

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Well Amherst had to be close enough to Williamstown to 1) want to move the college so it was “more central”, and 2) steal some Williams library books, profs and students and get them all to Amherst by horse and buggy in the middle of the night :smiley:

I think @homerdog meant “invited to apply to diversity visit”, not “invited to diversity visit” as that is an selective process with application, etc - and Asian students are definitely on the diversity lists at these schools. Explicitly so and often making the cut, as you discovered. (If you want to get more into that aspect there’s a thread about race in admissions).

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Oops. Sorry. Yes, I meant invited to apply for fly in visits.

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I’ve always found it interesting that the same road (Route 7) runs through Middlebury and Williamstown.

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Yes, it is easy to get from Williams to Middlebury or vice versa using Route 7.

Williams is between Amherst and Middlebury, so you could do the order A-W-M or the order M-W-A. It would need to be across two days— e.g., Amherst morning tour, Williams afternoon tour, stay overnight in Williamstown, drive to Middlebury the next day and take mid-day tour, then drive home.

Unless you definitely want your kid to pick Midd, you may want to start at Amherst. Midd is the most beautiful campus of the three, so the other campuses, while very pretty in their own right, suffer in comparison. Better to like them already before you see Midd!

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In response to your comment about Haverford being close to a city and maybe kids not spending enough time on campus— that is not my impression. My impression is of a vibrant campus life at Haverford. But when your daughter visits, she can ask students about that. But yes, the presence of so many Bryn Mawr women close by and participating in classes and clubs may create a less than favorable male-female ratio if she is heterosexual! That is the only disadvantage I can see to the consortium schools being close. Otherwise, close proximity seems convenient for taking classes!

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Maybe- if we were living in some imaginary 1950s world where women go to college to get their MRS degree and every girl knows that she is competing with every other girl for the attention of the boys.

Luckily, we aren’t.

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Yeah, it’s the difference between being asked to apply and getting accepted. My daughter gets mail all the time from MIT, Chicago, and Yale encouraging her to apply, but there’s no way she’s getting in any of those! I’ve heard (not sure if this is true) that if you’re accepted to one of the fly-in programs, you have an 80-90% chance of getting in.

In this case, my daughter applied to multiple diversity fly-in programs, got accepted to 2 (so far - still waiting on Vassar), but got encouraging feedback from a handful, basically saying that she didn’t get into the fly-in program, but they are genuinely interested in her.

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@dla26 it’s a little different than mail. Not everyone gets invited to the fly ins. At least according to Amherst when I called, they were looking at high stat kids. Lots of very selective schools do send mail to kids that have no chance of getting admitted. That’s a different ball of wax.

It’s great that your daughter was invited and was accepted to some of the programs. I wasn’t trying to say that it is not. I just thought maybe the diversity thing isn’t exactly what you think. She may have been invited because of her scores and possibly accepted because of her scores and the diversity she brings. I was just trying to point out that non-URMs are invited. Whether any apply or are accepted I do not know.

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I’ve read the whole thread and I have a lot of thoughts.

First, I think your D is overthinking many of the colleges’ traits and ascribing scenarios to them that may be irrelevant or simply untrue. For example:

Does she have evidence of this? Has anyone told her that, say, Haverford just feels like a section of a larger campus and that that is a disadvantage?

Again, does she have evidence that leaving campus all the time is an issue? Or is she just thinking that this is something that might happen?

It seems to me that she is trying to design her ideal college. Truly, when students select a college and take ownership of it, they come to embrace whatever traits that college has. If she ends up at Williams or Midd, she will embrace its location and distance from major cities. If she ends up at Haverford, she will embrace the proximity to Philadelphia for whatever it’s worth and she will embrace the proximity of Bryn Mawr and the opportunity to check out how it feels to be in an all-female class.

She needs to decide on her top two criteria, her “must-haves,” instead of weighing a lot of traits that will not be deal-breakers. She also should trust her gut.

FWIW, Amherst is the least likely of these schools to provide an ED boost, as they fill only 1/3 of the class via ED. Also, if athletes having special status would be a deal-breaker to her, she should carefully look at the athlete vs. non-athlete culture at Amherst (more so than the others).

Finally, isn’t transportation an important issue? You live in the state of Washington. Flights to any of the airports closest to these colleges involve a connection and then a 45-minute to an hour taxi or bus. Middelbury – fly Seatac to Burlington, then a 40 minute taxi or bus. To Williams, you’d fly SEA to Albany, NY, then a taxi from Albany to Williamstown, which is about an hour. Amherst-- SEA to Bradley (Hartford, CT) or Logan, then a bus ( 1 hour or 2 hours, respectively.) Bowdoin – SEA to Portland, ME, then a 30-mile taxi or bus ride. Is this OK with her?

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In your daughter’s situation, I would not – under any circumstances – apply ED to a school that she hasn’t visited.

I am wondering why she would choose to spend three days (I looked up the Haverford fly-ins and saw that they take place over three days, including a Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday) at a school she has already visited rather than take the time to see two schools that are high on her list she has not yet visited and that she would considering applying ED to – Middlebury and Williams.

Why not cut have her cut short the Haverford trip, meet her on the east coast and spend a day or two visiting the other schools?

Williams would give a bigger advantage for ED than other schools. I’ve heard that they are sometimes loathe to take kids from the west coast that don’t apply ED because the RD admits often end up deciding that Williams is geographically and climatologically undesirable (granted, the latter may be more true of SoCal than the Pacific Northwest, but, still…)