<p>There are ways to get started on solving the problem, but with the current state of the country there is no chance of them getting solved. It is similar to the discourse on this thread. There just aren’t enough people that are in the middle anymore and willing to compromise and listen to other viewpoints. </p>
<p>Personally I think it will take a MAJOR event to truly change things. I don’t know what that is, but it will be something life changing for most people (eg world war, societal collapse, worldwide pandemic, a true 1930s like depression etc).</p>
<p>Choirfarm, as an individual all you can do is the best you can every day to make things right. I have volunteered for decades to teach illegal immigrants to read because I feel that if the people I work with can learn to read, they can teach their kids and at least make their lives somewhat better than they would otherwise have been. But if I stopped to think about the scope of the problem, I would never get out of bed.</p>
<p>Back to the education gap which can lead to an opportunity gap . . .</p>
<p>Way back there some place someone talked about how the educational experience of a parent shaped what they know about guiding their child through life. I have learned things about educational opportunities in the past year that I never knew existed. D is doing a fairly rigorous IB diploma program at a socioecomonically and racially mixed HS in the burbs. She excels at some activities and has has a strong “normal” HS resume. I have been dumbfounded at the lists of things that some of the Stanford applicants have done in their short lives (back when D was applying to and getting rejected by Stanford SCEA) Who knew that HS kids where doing all those extra summer programs and lab research etc. Who knew that kids were taking and retaking entrance exams that many times? D and her peers are excelling in their environment, but most of them are not going that extra mile that they and their parents didn’t know existed.</p>
<p>DH grew up in a mill town. His dad never went to high school, but started working at the mill when he was 15. The only kids who went to college in that town were the kids of the teachers and other professionals. He was expected to be a “mill rat.”. His parents never encouraged him to go to college and wouldn’t have had the financial resources to pay or educational resources to guide him through the process. The guidance counselors assumed he would work at the mill. He got As, did well, graduated, then the mill was sold, labor was cut and he had to move away and start a different life.</p>
<p>He does his best to go to the parent curriculum nights and keep up with what modern educational expectations are, but it bears no relation to what his experience was so the kids know more than he does about how the system works. He can support them in their education, but not guide them. They are doing quite well and I’m sure will continue to assuming we can navigate this whole FA process, but if I didn’t have the ability to guide them it would be a different story.</p>
<p>One of my favorite quotes is that Rumsfeld one about the known knowns and unknown knowns. Some parents just know how the system works, and they guide their kids through it. Some parents don’t quite know how the system works, but they know enough to try to find out the answers. They realize some of the range of things they don’t know. This is where all those parent nights and college prep open houses come in handy. A third group, however, doesn’t know how the system works and doesn’t even have an inkling of what they’re missing and how to access it. These are the unknown unknowns. I grew up in that middle group and our family is there today. My husband grew up in that 3rd group and had he ended up with a partner from that group might have raised kids who also didn’t know how to navigate the process - not due to laziness or some innate disinterest in education or advancement, but a gap of knowledge, process and opportunity.</p>
<p>It’s a question between how much freedom you give a family on how they raise their children and what do you do if the children don’t grow up with skills needed by society. In a more authoritative society, you have the ability to wrest control from parents who society deems are not raising their children properly. In Western societies, you can’t do that, and there are a lot of good reasons for not doing so, but this privilege comes with its problems because of the caregivers’ priorities. </p>
<p>Let’s say if what you need to survive today is how to draw, throw/hit a ball, sing, or learn about what our ancestors did, my family will be starving and the kids wont get jobs because we treated all of these as peripheral or, at best, throw-away hobbies, and none of us have any marketable skills in these areas. If our school had invested zillions and brought Yo-Yo Ma, Wayne Gretzky, Michael Jordan, Picasso, and Plato to teach, our kids would still be clueless because we are not connected to what they have to offer and would have directed them to do as little as is needed to get by. If all Engg, computer, and Medical jobs had been eliminated or outsourced, and these were the only ones that society needed, we’d be needing public assistance. </p>
<p>What I’m saying is that throwing money or resources during 6 hours for 180 days only helps those who want to be helped, and based on the priorities of the world they live the bulk of their time, this can be a small fraction. It would have been better off bribing DW & I not to have children because we were not competent in raising the kind who were needed, but I can see how well this approach will be received.</p>
<p>It is in everybody’s interest that within one society the rich subsidizes the poor so that you minimize the problems associated with the have-nots by reducing their numbers. I’d rather see it by changing a society to have more vocational opportunities such as in manufacturing. A poor school district can then place the bulk of its students in middle class job tracks rather than try to send everyone to selective colleges and succeed with 1%, and send the rest to the street. This way, the student who becomes a radiology tech, or fixes an airconditioner or is taught how to change a busted disk in a PC can use the foundation to stay on this career or, if motivated, move on in their later 20s.</p>
<p>Completely agree with the above. Also: I applaud choirfarm’s honest post. From my perspective, I think part of the battle is understanding the limits of a strong work ethic, both on an individual level and on a large scale. This is not to say those things aren’t good or necessary, or that they can’t help people rise above straitened circumstances. But it is dangerously naive to assume that anyone with a bit of pluck can make it. </p>
<p>I hope TV4caster is wrong. I fear he is right.</p>
<p>I will disagree with your comment that it is naive to think that anyone with a bit of pluck can make it, that is exactly what it takes to “make” it even given every advantage in the world, if you don’t own your education, no matter how much people do for you, it won’t matter because the lowest common denominator in this picture is the student and if the student chooses not to put forth effort it’s not happening.</p>
<p>If we have been successful in reducing the educational gap between white and black children, as the article said, then why would we not be able to reduce the gap between rich and poor children?</p>
<p>(Assuming “we” had a role in that reduction by taking some action like desegregating schools, that is).</p>
<p>Entitlement attitude in the poor community.</p>
<p>This makes me throw up. I think the “rich community” could also feel entitled. I can’t believe that statement. Such a disconnect from reality. Come live in the poor community, I don’t think they feel entitled. Except maybe to a decent life comprised of food and shelter. I don’t know too many poor people who feel entitled to vacations, new cars, and even education. Except maybe that pesky public school system the job creators fund. The nerve of someone to think the rich should have to spend their hard earned money to send an 8 year old to school! Absurd!</p>
<p>Again, I disagree, that “bit of pluck” might just be getting the gumption to ask for help. I also think that the difference between a kid that against all odds does rise above and one that doesn’t.</p>
<p>“So I’m not sure what you’re asking me to clarify.”</p>
<p>Sorry for the confusion – I wasn’t asking you to clarify. I was just offering a bit of sympathy/commiseration about the fact that people nationally (not just on the thread) are quicker to condemn poor people than they are to understand and explain the system they are talking about. It seemed that both you and I were frustrated by that problem.</p>
<p>saintfan–then you do for yourself–if you know you want to go to college–go online at the school computer lab do some research, talk to the counselors at school, talk to your teachers about where they went to college…in otherwords, do exactly what OUR kids are doing (meaning the kids of people on CC).</p>
<p>I think it is naive to think that there are simple solutions to this problem. To suggest mere attitude/pluck is all that is needed implies that people choose to be poor. While it is true that many chioces made for the poor and by the poor lead to poverty, it is not just one factor. To suggest that indicates you do not have experience with deeply rooted and generational poverty. </p>
<p>I have dear friends that are teachers in a poor urban district. Despite “welfare” these children arrive to school on Monday am hungry. How do you focus on education while hungry? One friend (who teaches K) has students that sleep most of the morning because they were up late taking care of young siblings. These students do not have basic school supplies. They come to school without coats/hats/gloves/clothes that fit. They are raised by children who themselves have never entertained hope it could be better, or hope they will make it to old age. It is an unusual child who can look back through the generations and say- I am going to college. These issues run deep and certainly pluck is not sufficient to cover the gap. </p>
<p>I grew up in the poorest of neighborhoods watching my dad pull himself and our family out of poverty. So yes it can happen thank a higher power that my dad was one of those kids. However, when I look at my girlhood friends who are still uneducated and grandmothers to the uneducated, I certainly do not look at it as a choice they made. I knew all too well their circumstances at home.</p>
<p>Thank you, nellieh, for your perspective. Without wishing to put you on the spot, may I ask if you have any thoughts about the kinds of interventions that seemed effective from your point of view?</p>
<p>Honestly I don’t have any answers to the issue. </p>
<p>Syracuse NY has a program, Say Yes! to Education. It is indended to introduce kids in poverty to the idea that college is possible. If they do their job and get accepted Say Yes will take care of tuition. They also provide support services through out the educational cycle. I am not sure if is is successful and I don’t live there so can’t comment on the impact to the community but I love the approach. Speaking college to those in Kindergarten helps to plant a small seed. I think that can be powerful.</p>
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