<p>We own land that according to FAFSA needs to be reported on the form. The assessment on this land increased a full 700% a few years back, which is absurd (but true). People had advised me not to include it but I followed the rules (doesn't it seem like all of us that are following the rules, whether mortgages or whatnot, are getting screwed compared to those that didn't, sorry about the aside). The difference between including it and not including it is about $20,000 lower EFC (I have not worked in over six months, oldest parent 59, etc.).</p>
<p>The land is not a liquid asset (it is actually a money pit for me). It has been in the family since the twenties and, call it sentimental if you want, it will never be sold (it will be my daughter's one day--my one child now in college). I am not allowed to sell a portion of it even if I wanted to because I'm in a state forest program that reduces my taxes but doesn't allow me to sell any portion. I have long considered putting it in a revocable trust (which would still be in my name), but am now considering putting it in an irrevocable trust with a friend as the Trustee, if effect giving it to my friend. It would therefore not be mine any longer and would not be included as Parent's Net Worth.</p>
<p>Trying to cover all the bases: I understand that I have a lifetime cap of $1 million for the gift tax, so that's not an issue. Just wondering about the look back law that was set up for nursing home situations; is this law used by FAFSA? Most tell me no, some aren't sure. I need to be sure. Thanks.</p>
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<p>I have long considered putting it in a revocable trust (which would still be in my name), but am now considering putting it in an irrevocable trust with a friend as the Trustee, if effect giving it to my friend.>></p>
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<p>Well...to be honest...I wouldn't do this with a friend. Has nothing to do with FAFSA but has everything to do with an irrevocable trust. They are not that easy to deal with...and the notion of doing this with someone who is not a family member for something that is YOURS is a difficult thing for me to think about.</p>
<p>$20,000 difference in EFC is substantial for most everyone. You really need to look carefully into the irrevocable trust issue. One has been set up for our family by a well meaning relative and it is a HUGE headache...HUGE. AND it IS irrevocable, meaning you cannot turn around in a few years and take this property back yourself. Once you transfer an irrevocable trust property to the trust itself...it's there forever, and as part of your document you need to have a method for disolving the trust that is consistent with your state law, if that should ever become necessary. I'm not a trust attorney, but you should have one...but my guess is that this dissolution plan would NOT be able to be a repurchase by the person who originally gave up the property to trust. </p>
<p>These trusts are complicated and should not be viewed lightly. Keep in mind that if your "friend" has any kids going to college...your friend will be required to declare their share of the value of the trust on any financial aid applications they fill out even though they have no access to this value. That is the guideline...that much I have researched extensively. Like I said...it's causing a huge family headache with the 16 or so family members involved...I can't imagine doing something of this sort with a "friend".</p>
<p>...might be better than 16 family members! I'm sorry for your difficulties... but, I'd like to get back to my question, assuming I'm aware of all the pitfalls and have decided to do this.</p>
<p>Well...if you are doing it for next fall, you would need to divest yourself of this "asset" before your initial filing of the FAFSA/Profile...at the very least.</p>
<p>I don't know if they "look back". Some schools do ask for tax info for two previous years, not just one (so 2007, 2008). This might be the "look back" and someone might just wonder what happened to make this asset disappear.</p>
<p>In addition, your post implies that you have previously filed for financial aid and included this asset (is that true?). If so...ditto the above...the finaid department might just wonder what happened to a significant asset of this type...that POOF disappeared.</p>
<p>That better be one good friend! Anyway, can you really even do that in one year tax wise? Wouldn't this still fall under the max $12K gift to any individual? Most of the desperate measures people consider to lower EFCs bite back.</p>
<p>Yes there is an issue of "gifting" the property...but when setting up a trust, I don't think you are gifting it. You would have to check with a trust attorney.</p>
<p>I'm telling you all...setting up ANY kind of trust is NOT as easy as just transferring the assets to the trust. It is a time consuming legal issue. A lawyer specializing in trusts can answer the questions regarding tax advantages and what implications this has in terms of "gifts". And an irrevocable trust is just that...irrevocable in terms of the person who is PLACING the asset into the trust. Please...these questions should be directed to a lawyer with expertise in trust laws in your state. And they do vary from state to state.</p>
<p>And by the way...the only reason the irrevocable trust with our family is a huge headache is that there are simply now too many people who are beholden to each other to make the decisions. But that is how the trust was written.</p>
<p>...I think it is 13,000 or close to that a year you're allowed before paying gift taxes (YES, gift taxes do come into play and I'd be well over that). However, there is a lifetime maximum of $1 million that I don't expect to hit in my lifetime. So you just have to file paperwork with your taxes that it's over the annual limit, but you are putting it against your lifetime maximum. No gift taxes then on the transaction to the trust. The trust then owns the land, and if transferred, it is a trustee deed, with the owner still being the same: the trust. (BTW, don't take my word for anything, I'm not a lawyer, but this is how I understand it.)</p>
<p>Yes, he is a good friend. I do trust him. We grew up together and I am letting him use the land anyway, plus he'll be doing some work on it. I would NEVER consider this with a family member!</p>
<p>I am assuming at this point that there'll be no "look back."</p>
<p>One other question: Only one 1040 line is stopping me from using the Simplified EFC formula, line 13, which shows negative capital gains. If I decide to not declare them and pay more taxes, I could file the 1040A and because my income is below 50,000, not have to declare any assets on FAFSA. Question is, am I allowed to be a good American and decide to pay more taxes and file the 1040A (difference in EFC would be also about 20,000 and I wouldn't have to worry about the land and the irr. trust just yet).</p>
<p>Sounds pretty drastic to do over a $20K EFC if you really can do it. Hard to believe private schools will let this pass. They'll be looking at 2008 taxes and I'm assuming see you owned this property at that time. A major asset suddenly disappears with no questions?</p>
<p>Also, are the schools your child is applying to schools that meet full need? If your kid can get into one of the 100% need met schools, which are mostly the very top schools, he can get great merit aid at many good schools. Wouldn't that be much less risky?</p>
<p>I don't understand "let this pass." My EFC is what my EFC is, what FAFSA says it is. If it was 22,000, that's what it was. If it's now $2,000, that's what it is. I'm only here to ask legal or tax-related questions from nonprofessionals, not to have folks look at my motives, chances of success, intelligence level, criminal behavior, or the like. Thanks anyway though!</p>
<p>Who will be the beneficiary of the trust? If your daughter is the beneficiary, then the assets in the trust will be considered among her assets (at least for CSS/Profile, don't quote me on this for FAFSA). Probably not the effect you're going for.</p>
<p>Yes, trusts are a pain. And I'm not sure they're all that useful in the financial-aid context.</p>
<p>If the daughter is the beneficiary (or one of the beneficiaries) of the trust than she would have to declare her share of its value on the FAFSA as well. BUT I think this OP was planning to put the trust in the name of a friend (a friend who hopefully won't have the same issue if they have children applying for financial aid someday).</p>
<p>My friend has no kids and never will. As I've said before, I may be doing this FAFSA or not. Again, we're not here to debate my motives. As for the beneficiary, no, my understanding of an irrevocable trust is that the Trust is the sole owner itself (call it "The Smith Land Trust"), and the Trustee (my friend) is in effect the owner. I'd have to check, but I'm not sure there even has to be a beneficiary stated, but if there is, no, he or she is not the owner of the asset, the Trust is, with the Trustee being the de facto owner. If in the future the Trustee decides to pass it on to another Trustee, the owner doesn't change (it's still The Smith Land Trust that owns it), just the Trustee changes through a Trustee deed.</p>
<p>I believe y'all are thinking of a <em>revocable</em> trust, in which case, yes, I would still be the de facto owner of the assets (even though the Trust owns them as above).</p>
<p>I am thinking about irrecovable trusts. The trust is the "owner" of the property, but every trust has beneficiaries...those who benefit from the trust. This is true of irrevocable trusts as well as others. The only thing irrevocable is that the original owner of the asset cannot assume any ownership of the asset in the future...that is what is irrevocable.</p>
<p>As stated earlier...these are complicated questions and are best answered by an attorney well versed in trust law in YOUR state. The laws do vary from state to state a bit.</p>
<p>@Atticweb: Your understanding of trusts, as you've stated here, is incomplete. Whether revocable or irrevocable, every trust has three parties: the grantor(s), the trustee(s), and the beneficiary(-ies). Two of those parties can be the same; e.g., you (the grantor) could place your property (the res) in trust with your friend (the trustee) for yourself (the beneficiary). To continue the example, you could also specify that on your death, your daughter becomes the beneficiary; that would make her a remainderman, or a contingent beneficiary. All three parties (grantor, trustee, and beneficiary) cannot be the same.</p>
<p>"Irrevocable" just means you can't take the res back or direct its administration for your own benefit. It usually (but not always) means that you can't direct administration of the trust at all; however, this depends on the language of the trust document.</p>
<p>The language of the trust document determines its taxable status and other legal considerations (including the above). Especially with irrevocable trusts, how you set one up is very important. thumper1 has given you the best advice: Get in touch with a lawyer who specializes in trusts.</p>
<p>If you're talking about the "trustor" and "trustee" identified in public records, then you might not really be talking about a trust; you might be talking about simply deeding the property to your friend, perhaps with a lifetime lease for yourself and/or your family. You could do that, but that's not a trust, it's an outright gift -- and there are tax ramifications for your friend as well as increased risk of loss for you. Example: If your friend is the owner of the property, as opposed to the trustee, the IRS can place a lien on the property if the friend owes back taxes.</p>
<p>As you requested, I'll refrain from passing public judgment on your motives for this line of questioning, and limit my final comments to, "This is probably not an effective dodge for financial aid purposes."</p>
<p>Wow, you sure are! Thanks for all that, seriously, I didn't know all of that. I do have an attorney in the state involved and I'm sure (hope!) <em>he</em> does, which is why I have him.</p>
<p>Why hasn't someone made a movie, "Remainderman!"</p>
<p>Therefore have we established that the asset (in this case land) will be included in total assets on FAFSA no matter what (under this scenario), even with language to the effect "with beneficiary designated as Jon Doe Smith at such time as the Trustee finds him mature enough or at age 25, whichever comes first." With appropriate language in Trustee's Will of course also, in case he gets hit by the proverbial truck.</p>
<p>(I'm not really considering this anymore, but I'm finding the dialogue fascinating and educational if ok with everyone.)</p>
<p>Yes, but the language doesn't appear in the trustee's will -- the position of trustee is not an asset he can bequeath. You need that language in the trust itself -- folks typically designate at least one alternate trustee or more, plus language that covers what should happen in the event all the designated trustees become unavailable or incapacitated and (of course) language that directs the trustee as to maintenance of the asset (in this case, payment of the property taxes, maintenance of property insurance, monitoring against encroachment... the list goes on, but you get the idea).</p>
<p>Please don't take this as legal advice -- it's just what I know from previous exposure. Trusts are useful mechanisms for estate planning, but can be a real pain if you don't set them up with some serious forethought and an understanding of the tax ramifications.</p>