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Parents Forum
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Then you need to know yourself. I started my college search in winter of my sophomore year. My list changed over time, of course, but I never stopped wanting an intimate LAC with small classes in a non-urban environment. I can’t imagine changing my mind about that. And, in the end, I chose a school that was “on my radar” from nearly the beginning.</p>

<p>Some people’s heartfelt, honest opinions may indeed change depending on what they see in front of them. Other people’s, I assure you (because my father and I belong to the decide-once-and-forever type), would not. Two people, with the same financial need; one is well-suited for ED, one is absolutely not. If you, as a matter of personality, can’t confidently make a decision early and stick to it without regrets, then you shouldn’t be applying in the early decision round. The whole point of ED is promising that you won’t change your mind.</p>

<p>In the example that mom2collegekids cites, the actual difference is +$10k (which is not “normal,” btw, but anyway you should have in mind a hard number that you aren’t willing to exceed). The extra $10k from a “misunderstanding” is entirely the parents’ fault for being misinformed.</p>

<p>My personal situation and decision matrix was similar to electronblue’s and garland’s, which is why I am such a strong advocate of not automatically dismissing ED if you have financial need. My FA package through ED (to a school that promises to meet full need without loans) was actually a bit lower than what we had estimated using a peer’s online calculator. I also had “enough need” to require close to full tuition in merit aid. The rolling/EA schools that would offer me enough merit aid–such as NMF scholarships, which I researched quite extensively–were not as attractive as my in-state financial safety.</p>

<p>I also reiterate the importance of curmudgeon’s outlined financial criteria. (I am from a one-income immigrant family, though not first-generation or low-income. Everything fell neatly into the calculators.) And, if there are more than two parents/guardians with any legal association to you, please be extremely wary. Assume that all non-custodial and step-parents WILL be expected to take on full financial responsibility.</p>

<p>anxiousmom - If outside scholarships reduce work and loans, there is a practical reduction in EFC because you can still take those loans and still work on campus–it’s just considered outside of your FA package.</p>

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<p>Keilexandra said:</p>

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<p>Just a couple of quibbles.</p>

<p>If you “still take those loans”, then you’re likely looking at decreasing the amount of subsidized Staffords and/or Perkins loans and increasing the amount of unsubsidized Staffords. Since interest immediately begins to accrue on the unsubsidized Staffords and is capitalized if it’s not paid while the student is in school, this strategy could wind up being penny-wise and pound-foolish in the long term.</p>

<p>At some colleges, but certainly not all, it is much, much more difficult to find campus employment if you are not “on federal work study.” At a few places campus employment is essentially restricted to only those students on work study.</p>

<p>Finally at some colleges, outside scholarships start to eat away at institutional grant money (i.e. free money) long before they wipe out the student’s loans and work study moneys. [For example, if I recall correctly, Lawrence told my S that the first $1000 of outside scholarship would be used to reduce his loans and/or work study (his choice), but for every additional dollar of outside scholarship above $1000, half would be applied to reducing loans and work study and the other half would reduce his Lawrence Grant (free money). So an outside award of $2000 would effectively reduce (subsidized) loans by $1500 and reduce his institutional grant by $500.]</p>

<p>So it’s always in the student’s best interests to know exactly what their individual college’s rules are concerning outside scholarship money.</p>

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<p>^Agreed with all of your caveats, certainly.</p>

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<p>Agree with Dad II with curm’s caveat. Only the very richest, most endowed colleges provide generous, need-based aid such that I would not hesitate to apply ED. (Of course, they are also the most highly selective.) I’d probably draw the ED line at Vandy (no loan)/Emory (caps loans). (Dunno much about CMU.)</p>

<p>There are a few colleges who claim to meet 100% of need that can and do use parent PLUS loans in meeting that need. Sure, it ain’t following the general guidelines of meeting need, but dem’s that have the money set the rules… thus, I disagree with garland’s post #14, or at least its broad conclusion of “40” colleges…</p>

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<p>As the parent of a kid who was applying to colleges in 2009-10, I would not allow him to apply ED anywhere that claimed they met full need, but did not also promise to meet that full need without loans. S wound up not applying ED anywhere, but applied EA at several places.</p>

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<p>Seems to me the bigger problem is that many students read what they want to read into the FA statements found on their favorite, beloved, dream college’s website. For example, we all know about NYU and how terrible the FA packages are for many students who tell us NYU is their dream. Well these kids don’t just make their dream case senario up out of thin air: When they click on NYU’s FA link, [Financial</a> Aid and Scholarships](<a href=“http://www.nyu.edu/admissions/financial-aid-and-scholarships.html]Financial”>Financial Aid and Scholarships) here’s the first thing they read:</p>

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<p>Just how is a starry-eyed kid whose set their dreams on NYU going to interpret that language?</p>

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<p>Blue–I don’t have the reference now, but there was a poster on the FA forum (a FA professional) who listed them. there really are college-agreed upon rules for what ‘meets full need’ means, and Parent Plus may not be included (otherwise every school could call themselves that, but they don’t). that poster listed them; if I can find the reference, I’ll post it. I think it was about 20 Unis and about 20 LACs.</p>

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<p>Robinsue–yeah, a typical kid may not understand that that promises nothing. But of course it does promise nothing. Which is why you will not find NYU on a list of “meets full need” schools. It can’t call itself that.</p>

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<p>garland,</p>

<p>I agree that NYU is not on anybody’s list of schools that meet full need. I also agree that the schools that do meet full need are supposed to comply with agreed upon standards.</p>

<p>My point is that way too many high school students are not aware that it can be really tough to figure out from a college’s web site whether that particular school meets full need and whether “meets full need” includes maximum amounts of Stafford loans, state loans, and Perkins loans each year. And way too many high school students do not pick up “empty promises” posted on FA web pages of colleges that don’t promise to meet full need in the formal, legal sense. </p>

<p>I personally think that NYU’s language is both seriously and intentionally misleading, particularly since there does seem to be a rather large number of students who post saying that NYU is their dream school; some of those students apply ED and are royally screwed once they see their FA package; and even then we keep seeing posts asking for advice on how to make it all work.</p>

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<p>I guess it depends on how well you do the homework. In the case of the Cornell family mom2 cites, the basic homework wasn’t done. That loans and WS go towards meeting need as opposed to the EFC is FA 101.</p>

<p>ED is just for the rich and the savvy. It can work incredibly well for the low income at schools that meet need, and also for the middle income with uncomplicated finances. I hate to see so many scared off as it may well be their kids’ best shot at some great schools.</p>

<p>The real message should be: be very careful and truly understand the calculations.</p>

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<p>Many, in fact, most schools will pull in the Stafford Loans to meet need. So it is not a good idea to count on those to help pay your EFC. Heck, many schools, even throw in assumed PLUS on part of the parents.</p>

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<p>I agree with you. But I still wouldn’t let my kid apply ED because (a) our income is middle class at roughly $75K per year and (b) our finances are not quite “uncomplicated” even though we don’t have any of the normal “complicated finances” flags that pop up on CC.</p>

<p>The ED I and others are cautioning about applying ED are those middle and upper middle class kids whose family finances are not uncomplicated.</p>

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<p>I agree. In fact, I believe that most schools (including most that meet full need) will throw in maximum amounts of both subsidized and unsubsidized Stafford loans to meet need.</p>

<p>And given the aid packages I’ve seen with my own kids, I suspect that most schools put in the Stafford loans as the * first * part of the package, federal work study as the second, and then (and only then) add the institutional grant aid (which likely won’t be enough to meet full need at schools that don’t promise to meet full need).</p>

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<p>I know a family who did not qualify for financial aid for the two years that their oldest went to college. Like so many of us, their EFC, both institutional and FAFSA indicated that they should be able to pay for college, which they did, but painfully and with loans. One of the things that they did was to involve their student actively. Just as my family has done. Payment of college involves our savings from past income, current income, and loans against future income. The same for the student;s/he has what s/he has saved for college, s/he plans to work to pay for college, and take out some loans. The Staffords make it easier for kids to get loans since few private lenders are eager to give loans to kids in college. </p>

<p>When their second child was heading off to college, their was anticipation of some relief in terms of financial aid. The schools that both kids chose are pretty generous with aid, and the fin aid dept at the first one’s college had even said to him that with another kid in college, aid would be forthcoming. </p>

<p>When they got the aid packages, it was a blow to them. The Stafford loans which they were using to meet some of the EFC, which was the student’s contribution through borrowing was used to meet need. BOTH kids were given the full STafford amounts, subsidized and not, as part of their aid package. And yes, there was work study which was again pretty much useless as the older student worked at the tutoring center already, again as part of his contribution to the family EFC. So in a fell swoop, the present and future portions of the student’s contributions were folded into the aid package, and the family had even more money they needed to pay as part of the EFC, losing two vital sources for that money.</p>

<p>This hits home for me as well, since I am about in the same income bracket and will have two kids in college in 2011. Theoretically, we will have some need with that situation. How that need will be met is a whole other issue. My college kid works during the year at a job that he really likes and is tied to his studies. My future college kid intends to work to meet some of his expenses. Both are fine with taking some loans to help the family meet the EFC.</p>

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<p>^^^</p>

<p>Yes, some who have kids going to “generous” CSS schools wrongly think that their high family contribution will get evenly split and each child’s need will get covered with a grant. Not so - especially with schools that put Stafford loans in their FA packages. </p>

<p>Also, some/many of these schools do not cut the family contribution in half. They might reduce child #1’s family contribution, but not cut it in half. I guess they assume that parents should have to pay more annually when they have 2 in college (and not pay out the same amount.) That kind of makes sense. These schools assume that each child should have his own college savings acct and therefore the family should be paying out more annually.</p>

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<p>Until my son actually got his merit awards, we did not have an inkling how things would go. The first few months of this process were rather discouraging because he was immediately flushed from some of his pursuits. There is no way I could have predicted his outcomes.</p>

<p>We will be eligible for some financial aid when we have two in college, but it can net out to none or even more of a hole than what we have now. I just don’t see how anyone dares to take that kind of a chance when money is NEEDED. Wanted is one thing, but if you need it, it’s a pretty big risk to take. It’s not always simple, backing out of ED even with good reason.</p>

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<p>In all the examples given, the family did not do it’s homework.</p>

<p>Student’s can not take loans and hope they can go towards the EFC unless it’s at one of the very few no loan colleges.</p>

<p>How child number one’s college will treat a second child in college is something they will tell you at the schools that meet need when he is accepted.</p>

<p>Again, many have situations too complicated to take a chance, but I have worked with many students at different income levels who were able to apply ED with good results when the family understood the picture fully.</p>

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<p>Agree with Redroses–for those of us who have a salary and don’t run a business or have complicated investments, calculators for institutional aid are very accurate (I’m betting that’s most people.) the really truly “meets full need” schools I dealt with were upfront about saying Stafford/workstudy were part of it.</p>

<p>It is a matter of being educated; I don’t think that concept is well-served by “it’s complicated, so you middle/low income people shouldn’t do it.” I think education on how it works is a much better route to a good outcome (though it might increase the ED pool for those upper income folks.)</p>

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<p>*
How child number one’s college will treat a second child in college is something they will tell you at the schools that meet need when he is accepted.*</p>

<p>True, but you won’t know what child #2’s school will do (if anything.)</p>

<p>I agree that many don’t do their homework, but sometimes “you don’t know what you don’t know” so you don’t know what questions to ask. Parents are often very busy with their jobs and other family demands that some things just slip thru the cracks.</p>

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<p>Agreed that Harvard and Stanford have very generous need based financial aid…and huge endowments to support them…providing need based aid for even HIGH income families.</p>

<p>BUT I do want to say…only a handful of colleges view $180,000 as MIDDLE INCOME. There are hundreds of others that have early decision and do NOT have the same financial backing to be this generous to earners in this range.Most schools view $180,000 income as high income. AND many ED schools do not guarantee to meet full need…another issue.</p>

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That’s because no matter where you live, $180K is HIGH income.</p>