Why are we arguing over a metaphor? I still see nearly 30% of Harvard’s first year students coming from families that pay -0- for tuition - and another 30% that are probably full-pay or close to it. Harvard might get away with it because Harvard has never had a warm and fuzzy reputation; people are expected to “stay in their lanes”. But for a lot of LACs, that kind of socioeconomic mix has its potential for problems:
The Wesleyan Argus | The Long Fight for Housing Equity and Why It’s Not Over Yet
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You guesses about percentages are not accurate. According to Harvard’s website at Types of Aid , 20% of families pay nothing to attend and 45% of families are full pay. Paying nothing at Harvard corresponds to less than ~median US income. And full pay corresponds to top ~5% median income (or unique financial situation). 45% in top 5% income and 20% less than median income does not sound like a barbell or generally well balanced.
The point of the barbell metaphor was to suggest that there is a missing middle income group, and this simply isn’t accurate. Instead it appears that the higher the income, the greater representation at Harvard. Middle income students are overrepresented compared to low income students. Top 20% is overrepresented compared to middle income. Top 10% is overrepresented compared to top 20%. Top 5% income is overrepresented compared to top 10%. Top 1% is overrepresented compared to top 5%. …
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I’m surprised how many seem to be aware of the income of other students’ parents. When I attended college, students I knew almost never talked about their parents income, parents finances, or parents jobs. Students didn’t seem to be focused on whose parents were wealthy or poor. We instead talked about other students, our classes, our feelings, relationships, parties, school sports, etc. There were a few examples in which a particular student gave strong clues suggesting that their parents were higher income, such as inviting the dorm to stay at their ski cabin during winter break. However, this was the exception, not the rule. It was a similar idea for lower income. I’d occasionally see certain students at a campus job. However, the majority of students had campus jobs at some point, including a good portion of higher income kids, so seeing someone at a campus job was not a strong low income flag. For the most part, I didn’t know who was higher/lower income, and it did not influence my behavior or interactions with other students.
My parents were probably near median US income, which put me far below typical for the students at the highly selective college I attended. The income difference did not directly make me feel out of place. There were some indirect things that I believe were more cultural/values rather than income. I also noted some differences that were correlated with income. For example, when talking about our HS experiences, I was surprised by how many students attended HSs that offered a large number of AP classes. I was also in the clear minority who did not bring/purchase a computer and instead used the shared/free computer resources. However, at that time I thought of me being among the few without a computer relating to my parents being extraordinarily low tech (parents used typewriter and rotary dial telephone), rather than income related.
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I guess we’re still stuck on the metaphor. What about trees and forests? Does that work better?
I have no idea what you are trying to say with a trees and forest metaphor, and you didn’t clarify whether you disagree with anything stated in my previous post. If you are suggesting that the middle income class is missing or less represented compared to low income students, that isn’t accurate for Harvard.
The general pattern for Harvard and most other highly selective, private colleges is, higher income students are tremendously overrepresented compared to the general population. Lower income students are consistently underrepresented compared to the general population, often severely. Middle income students fall somewhere in between. All specific numbers I have seen in this thread have been consistent with these statements.
What “lanes” are those? Was my son supposed to avoid his suitemates and not choose to live with them? Were they supposed to avoid him? Apparently they didn’t get the memos.
And the trend - which is palpable and evident from your own statistics - is that low-income students are rising at Harvard and other elite schools, consistent with both institutional goals for greater socioeconomic diversity and a national consensus that colleges should be an engine for social mobility.
So, with those “trees” out of the way, maybe we can get back to the OP’s original question (the metaphorical “forest”):
I went to a public school and was in a sorority, although not an expensive or popular one. There were a few sisters who were wealthy and it wasn’t that we talked about it, but you could put it together from other facts. One, for example, went to Miss Porter’s school and she was a debutante (old money deb, not new money). She never talked about it, never invited anyone (that I know) to her home or on vacation. She was very very shy. Another was from a family that owned a major retail store chain. (last name wasn’t Target, but close) There were a few we had no idea how wealthy they really were until after college when someone was invited to a home where lunch was served by staff, on china and with silver. These girls used to vacation with their parents. We rented our own ski condos, and if they went along, they slept on the couches and floors like the rest of us.
My nephew attended the same school I did. He is higher middle class, went to a private boys’ school (with tuition higher than the state school’s tuition), etc. He wasn’t a poor. His girlfriend is from a wealthy family. He can keep up with them because he has a good job, but it is expensive to always be attending events; her sister had 2 weddings (covid) and one was a big big deal at a cathedral. The parents take them on vacations that are paid for but of course cost him in travel, time off work, clothing, picking up the tab at dinner to say thank you, etc. Right now he’s skiing at Vail. At Christmas. At Vail at Christmas prices. He very much benefits as the girlfriend’s father gave them a big down payment for their home (it is tied up for the girlfriend if they split, but nephew benefits from the lower monthly payment and no PMI). She is really a lovely person and I’m glad for him, but if he had another girlfriend he wouldn’t be living like he is.
My daughter was a scholarship student but always had champagne tastes. While in school she had no choice but to live like a pauper but now she buys what she wants. She works hard, she maxes out her 401k, she knows how to shop for a bargain, but if she wants Lululemon, she buys lulu.
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I certainly didn’t discuss parental incomes with anyone, or even their jobs except perhaps with my closest friends. But a common enough introductory question was “so, where are you from?” You can infer a lot when the answer is “Extremely Wealthy Suburb X”. You can infer a lot when a student wears expensive designer clothing or accessories (the girls), or brings to their dorm room a huge multi-component stereo system that clearly cost thousands of dollars (the boys), or drives an expensive luxury car, or happens to mention the exotic vacation they’re taking with their family.
I’m sure some schools have higher numbers of status-concious students, and others less, regardless of family wealth. And I strongly suspect there’s a difference between universities and LACs, as @kelsmom alluded to. The school I first went to was an LAC, and there was a critical mass of students from a particular wealthy suburban region. They gravitated to each other, and far outnumbered me and my kind. These kids weren’t deliberately flaunting wealth; they were simply continuing in the life they had grown up with. It was perfectly ordinary and natural to them.
On the other hand, I later attended and graduated from a large state university. There were certainly plenty of full pay students from wealthy families, but it was much less obvious. And unlike the LAC, there were many, many more students from very modest circumstances, including plenty who were working their way through school as I was.
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It sounds like we had very different experiences. I knew where many students were generally from, but rarely which specific suburb. Instead it was a general area that most students would be familiar with. For example, I knew multiple students from Chicago, one from Miami, I had a roommate from St. Louis, etc. When someone asked me where I was from, I’d usually answer upstate NY and/or list the nearest city they may have heard of. I only listed the specific suburb/town on rare occasions when I was talking to someone who was familiar with the area, such as another student form upstate NY. In short, this rarely gave good clues about wealth of parents.
I also didn’t pay attention to who wore designer clothing, and had no idea whose stereo was more/less expensive than others. Cars were restricted for freshmen. In later years some people I knew had cars, but I can’t recall any luxury models or whose car was more/less expensive. I also can’t recall anyone happening to bring up their expensive luxury vacation.
Perhaps the issue was more I wasn’t trying to find out whose parents were more/less wealthy. That wasn’t important to me. Based on actions of students I knew well, I believe many students felt the same way.
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We clearly did have very different experiences, at least comparing the LAC I initially attended to your university. As I said, my later university experience was much closer to what you describe. I also think it makes a difference where the schools are located. As an example, a large national university in California is probably more laid back than a preppy, regional LAC in New England.
At the LAC, I was in no way trying to find out who was rich and who wasn’t, and didn’t really care. But I couldn’t avoid it because it was in my face all the time. We were almost all from a few nearby states, so everyone was familiar with the specific areas. I happened to be very interested in stereo equipment, so knew by the brand names that they were very expensive. And perhaps teenage girls are more tuned in to fashion in general. As I mentioned in my original post, there was a particular group of wealthy kids in my dorm who seemed to think less of me because I came from very modest means. “You’re kidding, you’ve never heard of XYZ?” “You’ve never been to X or done Y? How provincial!” And maybe they meant their teasing harmlessly, but it made me feel “less than”. Or maybe these were just mean girls.
Anyway, I’m not the only one mentioned on this thread who’s felt out of place in a certain type of atmosphere of privilege. We’ve veered a bit from the original question of whether it changed us/our kids. It didn’t change me other than to teach me that I didn’t enjoy being around people who considered me an amusing curiosity because my background was different from theirs.
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But I knew multiple students from New Trier high school. Most of them were wealthy. If they weren’t, that was fine too, but it didn’t surprise me when they could fly home for a grandparent’s birthday party in the middle of the semester that they weren’t counting their pennies as closely as I was. Did I know if their parents made 5 figure incomes or 7? Yes, I could usually make a pretty good guess. Did it matter? Usually not.
I also knew the children of famous people -athletes, actors, politicians - and one would know that they were wealthy and most likely were not attending school on need based FA (maybe on an athletic scholarship). There are some famous people whose salaries are public.
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Of the two people I was closest to as an undergrad, one’s father had been head of MI6 and another’s parents ran a fish and chip shop. That wasn’t important. What did matter was who was more impressive academically, since that was how we measured ourselves.
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It definitely changed me. Most notably my accent changed a lot to fit in. But I really didn’t care about peoples’ backgrounds.
Let’s start with your son’s story. Did Harvard have any effect on his values?
I went to a top NE LAC as a scholarship student, and back then they didn’t give out a lot of financial aids.
As mentioned upstream that kids from wealthier family knew “how to take care of things” more, and that was the best education to me. Coming from an immigrant family, I didn’t know I had rights. I also had wine and cheese for the first time, and how to order/eat at a nice restaurant. My friends showed me what to wear/not to wear for different occasions. All of those social skills came in handy when I started my career in banking. I think in some ways it also inspired me to work very hard to give my kids what I didn’t have growing up.
My LAC was small enough that I had no choice but to make friends with people around me and they were nice to me. I did have to work 20+hours a week to have food and spending money in order to go out out with my friends.
Fast forward, my kids both went to the same top 20 large uni. I think because their school was much bigger with more diverse, students gravitated toward their own tribes (similar SES, race, religion) and probably less integration. My kids are half Asian and were happy to see so many Asians on campus, but quickly found out that they were not necessarily welcomed.
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I think this is most likely the result of having large number of students living in off-campus apartments and/or Greek houses. Students, like adults, are likely to choose to live and socialize among their own and more familiar tribes. Diversity, and more importantly, a diverse experience in college, shouldn’t be measured by some top-line statistics that colleges like to highlight.
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LACs have so many fewer diversions to lure their kids off-campus than big universities. I spent 90% of my waking hours in my room, pretending to study while the door was propped open. IIRC, many universities actually regard keeping the door open to your room as a fire hazard. As an aside, I would add that one of the less attractive traits I noticed about some my friends’ parents was how gruffly they spoke up about everything; they were almost like caricatures from a 1930s screwball comedy. My parents were from the south and we were brought up differently. So, it’s been interesting to watch my classmates grow into becoming very like their parents over the years.
The differing experiences posted on this thread are good illustrations of how much things can vary by school. It’s why “fit” can be an important factor for those students and families who are able to consider it. (“Fit” is something I didn’t have a clue about when I was applying to colleges.)
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Exactly. Fit is often an intangible that cannot be ascertained on paper. I grew up somewhat straddling the two general SES worlds outlined in above posts. It’s become the story of my life but I’d say overall been a positive thing for me personally and our kiddos.
I haven’t looked at any SES stats but only looked anecdotally at two schools our D23 considered in this regard: University of Denver and Fairfield University. Neither are as prestigious as the schools discussed above but they do seem to to skew wealthier. One she applied to and one she didn’t. And when it comes down to her final decision the perceived lifestyle and vibe of the student body is definitely something she’ll take in to account.
Just as an example, she’s worried about the general cost of skiing at DU (like lift tickets) while it appears that there are students there who have access to or own condos at a resort. Also DU has a 6 week break over thanksgiving and Christmas and there seem to be an awful lot of students who use that time to go on elaborate overseas adventures. Good for them! But our D23 would need to be working for part of that time.
It wouldn’t be the end of the world - just something for her to think about.