Effect of soft factors on law school admission

Graduate School Law School
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<p>I want to share with you my son's experience with law schools because I think it will help a lot of folks in the future as well as answering a lot of question.</p>

<p>Here are my son's background before I get into the results. He majored in accounting and got an overall 3.1 GPA in undergrad. He took the LSAT and after a LOT of practice and several exams, his high score was a measily 146. Since he had a "guaranteed" job upon graduating from any law school as a result of his networking and his credentials, he decided not to take another year retaking the LSAT but applied to 15 law schools , all of which had median LSATs of no more than 8 points above his and most had median LSATs of 4-7 points higher than his.</p>

<p>He did, however, have what I consider extraordinary soft factors. He attended a grad program in financial planning/tax since elder law is his interest. Despite being in the bottom 25% of his GMATs and despite being admitted provisionally to the grad program, he graduated valedictorian. In fact, he got an award for academic excellence. This was the subject of his personal statement, which was very well written.</p>

<p>He also worked at the IRS and got a director's award for his work. He got both his CPA and Certified financial planning certifications. Moreover, he was the founder of his fraternity ,which still exists today. He worked at a CPA firm who gave him sterling recommendations. OH yes, he also got a recommendation from one of the top law school professors in the US who is very well known who knew my son fairly well.</p>

<p>Despite all this he got into one , bottom rung law school: Florida Coastal.</p>

<p>Note. I am NOT posting all this to brag, complain or to seek consolation. I know my son is a great kid and his skills and drive will work well for him.I just wanted everyone to note that soft factors, no matter how strong, are just used for the margins in comparing candidates with very similar credentials. They won't overide the LSAT for almost anything primarily due to the median LSAT affect on rankings, as strange as that seems to me.. As I said in the thread " what we learned about law school admissions," the LSAT really is king, queen and prince as far as admission goes. When admission officers say they are using holistic admission, this is a bit of an overstatment that might apply to URMs and those with similar LSATs.</p>

<p>By the way, every admission officer who my son bounced these factors by at a career fair, told him to apply and that he still had a chance. NOT one law school at that fair admitted him. When I said that law school admission officers lie, I wasn't kidding.</p>

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<p>We are just starting out in college, but S would like to go to law school after completing his undergrad studies. He is looking at a double major in Chemistry and Political Science. Even at this early stage, I keep stressing the importance of standardized tests and college GPA for procuring a coveted spot in the top law schools, and his idealistic viewpoint is the cliche “learning for the sake of learning, not for the grade”. Thank you for your two threads, which I will have him read before he starts school in August.</p>

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<p>taxguy,</p>

<p>The thing is…the kinds of things you are talking about, other than the work experience, aren’t really what most people mean when they say soft factors. And, frankly, I don’t mean to be rude but…they are not really “extraordinary.” Moreover, the lower down the pecking order of law schools you go, the less important soft factors are. Conversely, the higher up you go, the more they tend to matter. </p>

<p>What are soft factors? URM status; geographic diversity (for private schools); in state status for most, though not all, public schools; substantial community service–TFA, Peace Corps, etc.;military service (my kid’s law school class had a Navy seal and several combat vets); political experience–has held elective office, run a gubernatorial campaign, etc.; legacy status at some law schools; major ECs–student body prez at a school where that’s meaningful; varsity athlete, especially a star (my kid’s law school class had an Olympic medal winner); author of a best seller; etc.</p>

<p>CPA status is NOT a significant soft factor. CFP status is wholly irrelevant.</p>

<p>Basically, while it’s hard to articulate this point, with the exception of a very few law schools, law school admissions is pretty much determined by the record you had on your college graduation day. You can’t really boost your odds much by things you do later, except for substantial community or military service or something politically significant or something really unique. (Way back when, one of my law school classmates had been the drummer in one of the best known rock bands of the sixties. When the band imploded, he went to law school. He was unique.)</p>

<p>80% of law school admissions is about two numbers: UGPA and LSAT. Half of the remainder is about things you can’t usually control: URM status, legacy status, geography, development case. All the rest–letters of rec, personal statement, work experience, ECs, graduate degrees, count for about 10%. That 10% can be the difference between who gets in and who doesn’t. </p>

<p>Again, I think that it is helpful to others to know that your son’s experience with admissions is at law schools where the median LSAT is a 154 or below and not the top 50 law schools.</p>

<p>Moreover, with a 146 LSAT and a 3.1 gpa, your son was at a disadvantage in the admissions process. The fact that at that level soft factors don’t seem to have been important doesn’t mean that for the student with a 3.6 and a 168 LSAT soft factors won’t matter.</p>

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<p>Law school admissions is almost a pure numbers game, and soft factors don’t count unless they’re truly impressive, like publishing a book, winning a very prestigious award, or starting a large, successful business. Undergrad major and work experience, even relevant work experience, have very little effect.</p>

<p>The soft factors law schools consider are generally things you have no control over.</p>

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<p>Jonri, and Wrathofachilles, you may be correct. I would have thought that work experience, especially one that produces awards would be relevant. I would have thought that graduating top of a graduate school class would have been relevant. I would have thought that passing the CPA would certainly be indicative of passing the bar,which is one big reason for the emphasis on the LSAT since the LSAT score does seem to be very corelative with bar results. However, as my post shows, I was wrong and admit it. I just wanted everyone who has kids applying to law school to understand what happend to my son and realize the vital importance of the LSAT and GPA numbers. Yes, I do know that a 146 on the LSAT sucks. Frankly, I couldn’t believe that anyone especially my rather smart son, could get so low a score. OH well.</p>

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<p>As stated on the other very similar thread:</p>

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<p>Admissions officers aren’t lying when they encourage people to apply, saying “you have a chance.” Saying that doesn’t guarantee admission.</p>

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<p>Flowerhead, they are lying if you don’t have the LSAT scores for admission yet encourage you to apply.</p>

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<p>You’re assuming there’s some kind of hard cutoff, which typically isn’t QUITE the case (although almost). I don’t know what kind of conversations your son had with these folks. But he could have walked up to (say) Georgetown reps and discussed his concerns with his 146. The Georgetown reps have no idea who this kid is – maybe he’s going to donate a ton of money, maybe he’s won a Pulitzer Prize, maybe he’s on track for a John Bates Clark medal, whatever. So they tell him that they consider any applicant, even those with 146’s.</p>

<p>That’s not lying. That’s giving an open ended answer when you don’t have enough facts to reach a conclusion.</p>

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<p>C’mon Bluedeveilmike. If you were asked by a kid if he had a chance with LSAT below their median and even seveal points below their bottom 25%, you at least might say that your chances aren’t that great, if you are being honest or at least ask if there were some overiding factors to overcome this deficit. Certainly, to say , “Oh yes, I think you have a reasonable shot by applying” is at best disingenuous and at worst, outright deceitful.</p>

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<p>A completely forthright statement would consist of: “Well, it’d take something pretty special, but we certainly read everything to keep our eyes open.” I have no idea what they ACTUALLY told you folks.</p>

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<p>Bear in mind that admissions officials have a motive for encouraging people to apply who are almost certain to be rejected. The USNWR rankings essentially reward law schools for rejecting applications, since doing so yields a lower acceptance rate which boosts a law school’s ranking. Thus, admissions reps may tell potential applicants with low numbers that they stand a chance of getting accepted even when the odds are remote.</p>

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<p>I don’t care about the incentives. Admissions officials aren’t lying. I’m sorry if taxguy’s son took their statement as a guarantee of admission. It simply wasn’t. If he took it as simply that he has a chance of getting accepted, the admissions official wasn’t lying.</p>

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<p>Bluedevil,I am not going to belabor this; However, I can personally assure you that only one admission officer said, “it would take something special” or even hinted that it would be an uphill battle. I was with my son at the law school fair and listened in to the admission reps responses. Thus, I know what my son asked and know what the responses were. In fact, even schools that were way out of my son’s reach LSAT wise encouraged him to apply without any indication that they were out of reach.</p>

<p>A perfect example that I remember was University of Richmond, who had an average LSAT about 15 points above my son, although we didn’t know that at the time. They specifically encouraged his application. When he applies , they sent him a rejection letter noting that his LSAT score wasn’t even close to what they wanted.</p>

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<p>Why didn’t you? That takes about 30 seconds of research.</p>

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<p>Did they actually say that? Because according to their admissions grid (<a href=“https://officialguide.lsac.org/Release/SchoolsABAData/SchoolPage/SchoolPage_PDFs/LSAC_LawSchoolDescription/LSAC5808.pdf[/url]”>https://officialguide.lsac.org/Release/SchoolsABAData/SchoolPage/SchoolPage_PDFs/LSAC_LawSchoolDescription/LSAC5808.pdf&lt;/a&gt;), they admitted 7 applicants with sub-150 LSATs, 5 of whom had GPAs under 3.25. So I don’t think it would have been accurate for them to say that he had literally zero chance.</p>

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<p>The fact of the matter is that if you don’t have the LSAT scores and GPA to be in the ballpark for admission to a particular law school, in almost every case, soft factors don’t matter. This has been stated on this board many times before. </p>

<p>If you are in the ballpark, particularly at top law schools, soft factors are what differentiates candidates with similar grades and LSAT scores. No, your soft factors don’t have to be Pulitzer Prizes and NY Times best seller listed published novels (though those softs wouldn’t hurt). Soft factors can include solid post-graduation work experience, particularly at law schools where a significant portion of their classes have work experience, being a professional athlete, teaching in an inner city school, acting as primary caregiver for an ill family member, conducting medical research, etc., particularly where the soft factors have made a real impact on one’s life or on one’s future career.</p>

<p>I’m sure that bluedevilmike, for example, could list some fabulous pre-law school accomplishments of his classmates. Those examples might give some idea of the factors that law schools use to differentiate among candidates that look similar on paper.</p>

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<p>We’re arguing facts rather than ideas at this point. This doesn’t sound to me like “lying,” but it could be, depending on precisely what was said by both parties.</p>

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<p>Zaprowsdower, yup, the University of Richmond really did say that,which surprised me too.</p>

<p>You noted that it was easy to google the fact that University of Richmond had median LSATs of 15 points above that of my sons. Yes, this is true, and we noticed that. However, the admission rep was so encouraging that my son decided to give it a shot anyway.</p>

<p>Sallyawp, I agree with you, which is why I started this thread and the other thread, “What we learned from law school admissions.”</p>

<p>Admittedly, it was a learning process for us.</p>

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<p>I think one problem is that too many applicants don’t do enough research about the process. It isn’t difficult these days to be an informed applicant prior to the time comes when you have to choose which schools at which to apply, and long before it’s time to submit your application. Relying on comments from school reps at a law school fair, when they are commenting without knowing anything about you personally, is a mistake. Whether their mission is to garner as many apps as possible is really beside the point. They are there to provide general information, not to comment on an applicant’s admissibility. </p>

<p>I think we can all see how it was a learning process for you, taxguy. It’s unfortunate that you and your son didn’t search out information in more detail, both online and directly from the schools, before he began the application process. I think it would have been very evident that a 146 LSAT score and a 3.1 gpa was going put him at a distinct disadvantage. As jonri mentioned, his ‘soft’ factors are not the type of softs that those schools that consider them will want.</p>

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<p>Admissions reps at any fair will tell almost anyone “they have a chance”.
It’s another opportunity to solicit more applications and drive down that acceptance percentage. That is, I’m not saying your son did not have a chance, but I am indicating that admissions reps are employed to get as many applications as possible, probably leading to misleading and potential untrue statements.</p>