Most engineering programs are now saying the weed out happens during the admissions process, not after. Almost every school we toured said that they have all kinds of supports in place to make sure their prospective engineers succeed and stay within the program… The percentage first year engineers transition to their major at Purdue is high. Gone are the days of “look left, look right and those people won’t be there at graduation”.
Wisconsin is one of the more aggressive weed-out schools, where some majors admit many more than they have capacity for, then dismiss those who do not meet a high GPA threshold after the first year. For example, chemical engineering and biomedical engineering require a 3.5 technical and 3.0 overall GPA to continue, according to https://www.engr.wisc.edu/academics/student-services/academic-advising/first-year-undergraduate-students/progression-requirements/ .
@shuttlebus I can only go by what Columbia and Princeton said when we visited. Columbia/Barnard and Princeton have a system whereby their “admissions clerks” send the highest scores to admissions officers. They said that AP scores weren’t considered when a parent asked.
“National AP Scholars” is a marketing gimmick of the College Board. It isn’t at all comparable with other “national scholarships” like Gates, Coca-Cola and Intel.
@ucbalumnus It depends on how the admissions office works. Just because you send scores to an admissions office doesn’t mean that actual admissions officers see them. At several Ivy League colleges, the admissions clerks enter the highest scores into their admissions portals and these are the scores seen by admissions officers. AP scores are not included. I assume it is the same at many other universities.
@exlibris97 you know that’s a fact? That those schools’ AOs don’t see self reported AP scores? I do wonder why there’s a way to self report if schools say they don’t consider it. That doesn’t make sense.
Kinda, sorta, but not exactly, at least at my Ivy League college. Yes, little elves in the basement (well, work/study students) assemble a cover sheet which lists stats, but they do list all AP scores as reported on the application. They do only list the top 2 Subject Test scores and the top SAT/ACT score; the other scores will appear further inside the package if the AO decides to dig for them. How another colleges does it may be different.
My D went to a relatively new, small (125 students per class) special admissions public high school with a project-based curriculum and no AP/IB offered. They did not encourage taking DE classes but did encourage taking classes at 2 local universities that had programs to allow public high school students to take a class or 2 for free. The school has had students accepted to about every elite institute with a one notable exception - Brown. It might be possible that the lack of Aps/IB is a problem there. Small sample size so it might just be coincidence.
Not sure why the distinction between “DE” and a college course taken while in high school that is not officially labeled as “DE” is relevant for college admissions.
@skieurope Possibly, I was referring to Princeton and Columbia. In both cases I know from speaking with those “little elves” that AP scores do not appear on the AO’s computer screens, and that the system automatically updates for the highest score received. And unless they are lying, Harvard claims that AP scores are used for placement but not for admissions. At least that is what their admissions officers say.
@homerdog Self-reporting is used but it is up to the university to decide WHICH scores to consider. Some consider all scores, some only the highest. Some consider APs, some don’t. And the Common App is a “one size fits all”. What happens once those applications are downloaded differs from university to university.
The AP program (like standardized admission testing) should offer opportunities for bright, ambitious kids to distinguish themselves against objective standards, regardless of family background and connections. If these programs aren’t being implemented well, why not improve them? I don’t see how developing HS curriculum or setting college entrance requirements on a school-by-school basis can be a good trend for the country as whole. If in fact these are the right things for a few elite high schools and colleges to do (not just marketing ploys but real improvements to education) then maybe the DOE or the ETS ought to be following their lead to consider coordinated, systematic changes. Otherwise, why should most people care what a few elite private high schools do?
@exlibris97 For many many reasons that I’ve mentioned in the past, I firmly believe that AP scores carry little to no weight in the admissions process for most colleges, not just Harvard. But based on the 100 freakout posts this week stating “I got a 2, will I get into…?” most applicants (and parents) seem to disagree. 
They matter more for kids with the reverse–mostly 5s with the occasional 4–and not so great grades in the same subjects. it’s a way to show something else was going on–failure to do daily homework; lack of comprehension early on in the subject followed by mastery by the end of the course; personality clash with a teacher, etc. I’m convinced that a 5 on an AP test and a 800 on a SAT II subject test can outweigh a less than stellar grade in the same subject.
Don’t majority of colleges still take APs as college credit and allow kids to graduate early? With the private college cost at $75000/yr and new graduate earning $75000/yr, that is easily $150k savings if APs can count for one year. I know for families paying $40k/yr for these 8 expensive DC private HS the $150k may be small change, but for vast majority of others APs have practical financial implications in college cost.
It’s seems to me AP is a great equalizer. How many times have you read about a kid who got a 2 on the test and an A in the class. To me it shows the school is weaker than a school that a kid who got a B in the class and a 5 on the test.
It shows no such thing. Anyone can have a bad test day. Now if the kid got a string of 2’s, I might agree.
Or if the trend over all of the students in a school or district who earn A grades in AP courses is that they earn 1 or 2 scores on the associated AP tests. For example, see figure 7B in http://www.houstonisd.org/site/handlers/filedownload.ashx?moduleinstanceid=73138&dataid=211997&FileName=2017%20AP%20Report.pdf from the Houston ISD which shows that A students in AP courses in subjects like history / social studies and science are most likely to score 1 on AP tests (but those in math / CS are most likely to score 5 on AP tests).
From education reporter Jay Matthews in The Washington Post.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/decision-by-7-private-schools-to-drop-ap-courses-flunks–the-smell-test/2018/07/15/a27e9572-8571-11e8-8553-a3ce89036c78_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.a25892881b8f
I believe that my S18, who attended a large, public CA high school, benefited from the many AP classes he took during high school. I think the rigor of the coursework was helpful to him in preparing for college and that taking the classes helped him with admission. We are also very happy that he is now entering a UC as a first year student with 30 units on his transcript already!
One thing I don’t think has been raised on this thread is the calendar timing of the AP tests. My kids’ high school starts kind of late and ends kind of late - a bad schedule for the AP tests. Kids at my sons’ school have a few weeks less to prepare for the AP test than kids at high schools that start earlier and they also kind of twiddle their thumbs after the AP tests are completed. I have friends in other areas whose kids’ schools have pushed their whole calendar schedule up and go back after summer a lot earlier, apparently to conform to the AP test timeline.
I think that this late start may contribute to overall lower AP scores at some schools (such as my sons’ high school). The teachers at his school also don’t start meeting with students in the summer, like I’ve heard they do at some schools in L.A., or hold weekend study sessions.
It doesn’t have to necessarily result in lower scores. Metro-NY-area public schools start after Labor Day. Students at my kids’ HS score very high on average on AP exams. It is true, though, that they have to rush through the curriculum because they have fewer weeks to get through it.
Meeting with students in the summer? How can they require that? What if students go away for the summer? So many kids are not home during the summer months. Not to mention that so many teachers are not around in the summer. Even if they are, I can’t imagine the teachers’ unions would be on board with that.
I teach APUSH - my kids have a summer assignment of reading + videos of me teaching - which covers most of the colonial era. This is material kids have already learned in 8th grade (vis a vis our state curriculum). Summer assignments are fairly common in my HS - I know AP Gov, AP English, AP Chem, AP French/Spanish, and AP music theory all have them as well. Btw - mine is not long, read 3 chapters, and watch 3 thirty min videos. Idk how long other people’s are - I imagine AP Eng is the longest, I know my own kid had to read 3 books during the summer before each of those classes.