Elite Colleges Go After Low-Income Recruits

Parents Forum
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<p>And many times, neither do their parents. To be fair, if you are low income, it is hard to participate in a major EC like band, which is expensive. Also, you're needed to either work or babysit in the summer. It sucks to be low income (I was once). Good news is that it does not need to be a permanent condition. My college degree took care of that.</p>

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<p>my daughters school has a fantastic jazz band and orchestra- winning national competitions many times over.
However in our district the schools generally offer instrumental music in 3rd and 4th gd only- other than that you will have to find an instructor yourself ( not to mention renting the instrument)
My daughter did take the lessons when it was offered, but we didn't have the money to continue ( and she didn't want to do it outside of school)- now she wishes she had- since it is a major focus at her school-it is a shame that we no longer support skills and talents that aren't testable for statewide assessments.
So many schools are cutting back subjects that aren't on the statewide tests- :(</p>

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<p>
[quote]
xiggi, I don't think these technical differences matter so much. The point is, that the travel + tuition + boarding + books + personal expenses are all, in our case, granted.</p>

<p>Yes, there is a small portion of need (for the entire package) that will be fulfilled via student employment. If that is not fully met for any reason, the student will have to make up that gap through additional employment, a small loan will have to be acquired, or add'l parental contribution will make up that difference.</p>

<p>One is not "working" for travel specifically any more than one is "working" for one's tuition as a separate category. (Sybbie's post implied that to me; I may have read her wrong.) And clearly if a student wanted more travel $ (for local trips, for example), he/she could earn a little more to make more money available for the entire package of expenses.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Teachable moment here:</p>

<p>For the low income student which the elite schools are trying to attract it is not unusable to see the following:</p>

<p>Using Yale as an example:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.yale.edu/admit/freshmen/financial_aid/glance.html#cost%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.yale.edu/admit/freshmen/financial_aid/glance.html#cost&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The cost of attendance includes expenses billed directly (tuition, room and board), as well as estimated allowances for non-billed costs (books/personal expenses and travel). For 2005-2006 cost of attendance is :</p>

<p>Tuition and fees $31,460
Room and Board $9,540
Books and personal expenses $2700
Cost of attendance $43,700</p>

<p>They have a sample FA package for a family range $20-40,000 as follows:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.yale.edu/admit/freshmen/financial_aid/glance.html#samples%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.yale.edu/admit/freshmen/financial_aid/glance.html#samples&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>COA $ 41,500</p>

<p>Parent Contribution $2,000
Student summer contribution $1,650</p>

<p>Need $37,850 </p>

<p>[ul]
Loan or work study $4,200 (lets say this is a 50/50 split between loan and WS)
*Loan $2,100
WS $2,100 *
Scholarship /grant aid $33,650</p>

<p>100% of the demonstrated need has been met.
[/ul]</p>

<p>Now Lets break everything down assuming the same $2,700 for books and personal expenses:</p>

<p>Because the school always gets paid first, the following goes toward the tuition room and board of $38,800 (41,500 -2700):</p>

<p>[ul]
[<em>]Scholarship /grant aid $33,650 (most likely covering all of the tuition and some of the R&B)
[</em>]Parent Contribution $2,000
[<em>]loan $2,100 (remember the loan check gets made out to the school and any leftover monies school writes check to the student)
[</em>] Total $ $37,750 [/ul]</p>

<p>Student will have to allocate $1,050 (38,800-37,750) of the summer earnings to make sure the basics (tuition, R & B) are covered leaving them with a balance of $600 once they arrive on campus.</p>

<p>[list]
[li]So now they have the $600 gotta buy books and have incidental $ to hold them over until first paycheck. A job is not automatically waiting for student when they arrive on campus because even with work study there is still an application process, which takes time. Even when student does get w/s job it takes 2 weeks for initial check and they get paid every 2 weeks.</p>[/li]
<p>[li]We haven’t even calculated the cost of setting up the Room before they even get to campus. Need to purchase those XL sheets, comforters, and other basics. Where does this money come from?.</p>[/li]
<p>[li]What if they need a new computer for school (this is not out of the ordinary for a low income student who is probably using the family computer at home if that). Probably will take another loan to cover this expense.</p>[/li]
<p>[li] What happens if they are sick at school? They can go to student health but any prescriptions written must be paid out of pocket by student.[/li][list]
And clearly if a student wanted more travel $ (for local trips, for example), he/she could earn a little more to make more money available for the entire package of expenses.</p>

<p>The family of the low income student is probably using every resource they have available (including extended family, church etc) just to make the basics happen because for them this is a dream come true for the student. Doesn’t it seem that this student who probably needs to allocate maybe more of his/her time towards their studies because they will have to come up to speed to deficiencies in their education from their inner city schools. This kid is literally going to be a hamster on a wheel trying to keep everything going. So even with all of the generous FA, this can still be a financial burden to the family.</p>

<p>So if the school really wants to help the low income student give enough scholarship/grant aid that when combined with the parent contribution the Tuition room and board is fully covered . That way the students summer earnings can be used to help get them up and running.</p>

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<p>Sybbie:</p>

<p>I am not familiar with the ins and outs of financial aid, but I recall seeing on a Harvard board that there are computers for loan to low-income students. I imagine the same deal is available at many other colleges.
I think that $600.00 for books is low. Math and science textbooks cost $100+ apiece and publishers have the annoying habit of bringing out new editions all the time. In particular, they scramble the order of the problems/exercises making it very inconvenient for students to use an older edition. If students are in large classes, they can't rely on reading books in the library.</p>

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<p>This all assumes of course that the low-income student doesn't have to send money home to help support the family or other siblings (and without doing so, they can't attend, regardless of the scholarship offer.). Ruth Simmons at Brown got it right (which is not surprising, as she is the daughter of sharecroppers, and faced this situation herself) - it wasn't the loan expectation that was getting in the way of low-income students (and doing away with such expectations mostly benefitted top 20% students anyway), but doing away with at least the first-year work expectation. Not that the students wouldn't work, but that the money earned would not be expected as part of the payment to the school, hence enabling it to be used for other purposes, including sending funds home. The same could also hold true for summer work contribution expectations.</p>

<p>When admissions office don't take this into account when making decisions, they simply set low-income students up to fail.</p>

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<p>Ruth Simmons was dead on with that observation. Particularly true for immigrant Hispsnic students and families.</p>

<p>Ruth Simmons with a keen observation - one more proff that even a blind squirrel will find a nut once in a while.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I am not familiar with the ins and outs of financial aid, but I recall seeing on a Harvard board that there are computers for loan to low-income students. I imagine the same deal is available at many other colleges.
I think that $600.00 for books is low. Math and science textbooks cost $100+ apiece and publishers have the annoying habit of bringing out new editions all the time.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I know at Dartmouth there are no loaner computers for low income students, the school will give you a loan to purchase a computer. A loan for the purchase of a computer is available to anyone receiving any FA from Dartmouth.</p>

<p>Reagarding the books, you are absolutely right that the $600 the student has left over may not be enough to purchase books for even first semester no less the first year. At many colleges, students are taking 4 to 6 classes per term. I know my D took math and chem together and each book was $180. She paid $160 for a bio book and had a psych class with a reading list of 30 books out side of the text book. How is a low income student suppose to get around all of this? Mini is correct that this often sets the student up for failure.</p>

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<p>"xiggi,
I don't think these technical differences matter so much. The point is, that the travel + tuition + boarding + books + personal expenses are all, in our case, granted.</p>

<p>Yes, there is a small portion of need (for the entire package) that will be fulfilled via student employment."</p>

<p>FB, you're correct that the technical differences do not matter too much. However, your second and third kines are contradictory. Either your COA is fully granted or not. For instance, I can add all my estimated expenses (including travel and dependent care expenses) on one side and then add all my grants on the other side, and the totals are a perfect match (after adding my EFC.)</p>

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<p>Regarding books, it is assumed that students will RESELL their books. If the difference is very high, students can also request a revision of their award by submitting the copies of the exact costs. </p>

<p>Of course, being able to resell books does not help overcoming a cash flow issue. It is possible that the student may have to sell the books at the end of the semester before buying the plane tickets back home.</p>

<p>As far as being able to send money home ... that is NOT the purpose nor role of financial aid for education. It is a REAL bad idea to mix welfare with education. We have discussed this issue in the past, and there may even precedents (I believe post war grants.) While I am for stretching the financial for everyone, I think that it would a gross misappropriation of funds to transform education financial aid into a disguised family welfare program, especially in light of the sacrifices that many middle-class families have to make to send their own kids to school. </p>

<p>Focusing on making sure that all college costs are correctly and fully covered should be a much higher priority.</p>

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<p>Well, as to Sybbie's Post #23, the last paragraph appears to describe the situation for my D and our family. And our EFC is quite tiny. There are no loans expected or assigned. My D is also very frugal & knows how to cut corners wisely without sacrificing essentials. Apparently so do I, as I found a steal on a laptop for her 1.5 yrs. ago: it will be fine for college.</p>

<p>Not every college or U's fin. aid package is exactly like Yale's. The configuration can make the difference. (And in that sense I do agree with sybbie.)</p>

<p>So from a personal standpoint, I don't think our low-income family has a whole lot to complain about. Rather, what I do still find unfortunate is that the generosity of colleges/U's to <em>middle class</em> families continues to be somewhat restricted, i.m.o. It seems that families either take out additional mortgages, the student incurs debt until age 40, or attends a Public unless they make it into the very generous (usually top) colleges. An almost-"top" college may not have "top" gap money for those families. I think that's a shame. I know it's not fair to hijack this thread, but that's why I don't object to merit money given to the middle class. If it's gap money for them, I don't see the unfairness there. It seems to even out an inequity, i.m.o. Sorry; I'll shut up about that.</p>

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<p>Sybbie, let me add a few additional items to your list of woes:</p>

<p>Based on your example, I will use a figure of 9,000 for room and board and 700 for books.</p>

<p>The student is now having taxable income of: </p>

<p>Room and Board : 9,000
Travel and personal: 2,000
Earnings: $1,650* (WS study is not taxable)</p>

<p>Total Income: 12,650 </p>

<p>*First the student can expect to contribute about 7.65% of the income in SS taxes. Not much, but the student will probably need to earn 1,800 to cover the SS taxes and still earn 1650. </p>

<p>But that is not the end of the story! Since the parents have a $2,000 EFC, we can safely assume that they have taxable income and will use the dependent exclusion. This means that the student will only have his standard deduction of $5,000 in 2005. (4,850 in 2004). The student will thus have taxable income of $7,800 ($12,800-$5,000). The lowest income tax for the student is $780.00 and the SS tax was 137.70. This also assumes that the student did not earn the summer income as an independent, as it will trigger additional SSI but a slightly different tax bite. </p>

<p>Now, if the student were to earn a bit more, he or she could make a case to claim the personal exemption as opposed to the parents. For example, the student could earn $2,500 in the summer, minus 191 for SSI. The taxable income would change a bit with an added deduction of $3,200 and $700 more income. The result would be a taxable income of $5,300 and a tax bill of $530 plus 191 for SSI taxes. In the end, the student would have about $1800 to cover his required $1650.</p>

<p>Note that the $2,500 would not trigger a FAFSA contribution in most states. Anything above that number will trigger a massive 50% hit. Also note that the student will have to be very wise with the income and make sure that it is not considered a cash asset on the day the FAFSA is filed. Financial aid funds do not constitute cash assets, but the cash representing earned but unspent income is. In other words, it would be wise to pay the taxes due to the IRS before filing the FAFSA. </p>

<p>It is clear that a student who needs to work to cover the summer earnings and cover additional bills will find himself in a difficult situation. In this case, borrowing the funds needed does not trigger that many negative issues. I am, however, not sure if the student has access to special loans for this purpose.</p>

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<p>Harvard set up a phone bank to call potential low income students, but the folks manning the phones couldn't answer basic questions about the school's financial aid initiative program. It wasn't very encouraging.</p>

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<p>I agree with Xiggi, that the purpose of FA should be education. Yes, the family that is being left behind is going to have to look for ways to work around the sibling that is no longer there as the child care provider or contributing part of their afterschool earnings to the family. </p>

<p>I don't want to come off as ungrateful because we have a generous package from Dartmouth. But that is not to say that we also make sacrifices for the education to be affordable and to not be bogged down with loans. Daughter also knows that she has to be an active participant in the financing her education which is why I have absolutely no problem with the concept of a student contribution adn beleive that it should always be a part of calculating FA. </p>

<p>I know in my house we break down the cost of attendance, and the FA award into components (tuition , RB, misc items etc) and she is responsibile for managing her money to make sure that her obligations to her education are taken care of. So yes over the summer when she works she literally banks every penny of summer earnings (I pick up the tab for transportation and lunch so that these cost do not have to be deducted from her pay check). </p>

<p>I have friends who give their kids allowance over the summer so that they can bank all of their summer earnings. In the end it is about doing what is best for you.</p>

<p>However, I would like to see a portion of this money used so that the student can start collge getting the things that s/he needs to be successful.</p>

<p>I also understand that the system is not perfect and for the moment maybe schools are doing the best that they know how.</p>

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<p>"As far as being able to send money home ... that is NOT the purpose nor role of financial aid for education. It is a REAL bad idea to mix welfare with education."</p>

<p>I think private institutions should be allowed to do what they darn please. If they really want low-income students, they can make it work, just as they do with athletes. (There are schools that cover tuition, room, board, books, clothes, travel, computer, and "living stipends" - if they want you that much, they learn how to take care of you. Actually, I would note that the ones I know of doing this are public institutions.) No welfare program - it's just their cost of doing business the way they choose. It has no particular public policy implications one way or the other (and some rich alums would jump at the chance to support it, just as others do with football teams.)</p>

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<p>I remember reading an article (put out by H) about their new financial initiative. H used to require all parents contribute, even a little. In many cases, the parents wouldn't contribute--the kid would work more hours at school to cover that nut. So H's initiative that no longer requires any parental contribution if income under $40K directly impacted many low income students.</p>

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<p>Harvard and other private colleges and universities should be free to sructure their fees any way they want. The school can certaily afford it. If I ran the place and had their endowment onstead of charging tuition I would put students under contract and pay them thus permanently assuring myself the top students in the country - basicallt what the military academies do.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I would put students under contract

[/quote]

what would the contract be for?</p>

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<p>Best students, four years, maybe assigned major in sime cases, possibly future earnings. In the later case think of it as a contractual virtuous circle. We pick up full cost and expenses now and you contribute 1% of all future earnings to the school perhaps with a buyout clause. You flunk out or otherwise perform unstatisfactorily and cost incurred come due immediately, interest at market rates, and we still get 1% of future earnings (sorry no out Bill Gates).</p>

<p>Oh and like a baseball team we can sell your contract.</p>

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<p>Hmmm.. Interesting concept.<br>
I expect that many alumni who donate to their alma mater were scholarship students. Based on what I know of students' default on loans, the colleges might have difficulty collecting and the cost of collecting might not be worth it. I wonder whether the contracts would be enforceable?</p>

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<p>I don;t know how enforceable it is but I imagine a decent lawyer could write a contract that is. The idea is not especially original. 40 years ago when I was in Catholic parochial schools and there was already a shortage of teaching sisters our diocese was aleady sending to kids to college witht eh deal that if the got their teaching certificate and taught in the schools for three years the dicese would forgive the loan.</p>

<p>They public school system here in Maryland does the same thing today.</p>