@publisher I don’t have access to the US news locked reports…what do they cite as the source for this list? CDS?
These stats only really affect a student if the small or large class size is a for a class they intend to take.
Welsh Language 101 would most likely have a smaller number of students than, say, Introduction to Economics at almost any college or university.
The previously quoted federal reporting guidelines states that colleges should report the following student faculty ratio for federal purposes – “Total FTE students not in graduate or professional programs divided by total FTE instructional staff not teaching in graduate or professional programs.” The definition does not include graduate students. I agree that not including grad students can make conclusions with the number misleading, but that is the reporting method used by the overwhelming majority of colleges – both public and private – when reporting for federal purposes.
Of course including grad students also opens the door to a host of issues. The number is most meaningful when considered in the context of the full school. For example, comparing to other similar LACs without many grad students; or comparing to other similar “research/doctoral” colleges with a large portion of grad students; rather than comparing a LAC to a “research/doctoral” college.
The whole student faculty ratio is meaningless. Students don’t utilize professors not teaching their courses.
They should simply average the number of students in each class. If the course is taught by a GA, they should add the students but not account for it being a separate class.
Based on self reported class size data:
Harvard’s average class size is 20.
Rice’s average class size 23.
MIT’s average class size is 25.
Stanford’s average class size is 28.
UVA’s average class size is 30.
UNC’s average class size is 33.
Illinois’ average class size is 36.
Georgia Tech’s average class size of 38.
Texas AM average class size is 43.
U Texas Austin’s average class size is 45.
UCSD average class size is 46.
Berkeley, Michigan, Florida did not give detailed class data.
Private universities seem to be in the 20 to 30 range.
Public universities seem to be in the 30 to 50 range.
You also have to factor in that many lower level courses (for Freshman and Sophomores) will have larger classes and those for upper classmen will have smaller classes. But there are great classes with 100 and bad classes with 10. It’s just one metric of many.
As or more important then actual class size is who is teaching the class. Is it an experienced professor who might be a topic thought leader or is it a TA (could be a very good TA)? Some schools focus on undergraduate education. They tend to be the smaller schools. Yes they have smaller classes, but a big plus is the emphasis of Profs is at least equally divided between teaching and research. At some of the larger schools, profs may do very little actual teaching and have a primary focus on research.
It’s also safe to say a university that is higher in liberal arts than STEM will have more obscure classes and thus smaller class sizes.
Average class size isn’t much better. Average class size includes primarily graduate classes. More importantly, the class sizes typically vary tremendously in different fields. For example, a Stanford student choosing a popular major, such as CS or Bio+pre-med, is going to have a lot of large lecture classes with 100+ students, while a student choosing a less popular major, such as a language, is probably going to have a lot of very small classes.
As was touched on earlier, it’s also important to consider that the typical class size students see is usually very different from average class size. Continuing with the Stanford example, their CDS reports 76 classes out of 1677 with 100+ students. Only 4% of classes have 100+ students, yet the overwhelming portion of students regularly see such classes as underclassmen. This is mathematically expected. If students were randomly assigned to classes with the listed distribution, a particular student would have a more than 30% chance of getting assigned to 100+ class, even though only 4% of classes are 100+, and a student would only have a ~6% chance of getting assigned to class with under 10 students, even though 35% of classes are under 10. There are a large number of small classes, yet few students get assigned to them because the classes don’t take many students. Instead far more students get assigned to the few big classes because they take a large number of students.
IMHO there’s no good metric, other than sitting in on classes and seeing for yourself, then hoping for the best.
At her last college visit, my kid sat in on an intro science class that would fulfill premed requirements. It had 17 students. She also sat in on an upper-level “area studies” class, which had 70 students (one of the largest classes at that particular school). Both classes had a high level of student participation and excellent teaching. What she took from that was that class size was not necessarily relevant.
Or seeing if the college’s class schedule shows class sizes and then looking at the class sizes of the specific courses that the student will likely choose (e.g. those in his/her prospective major(s)).
Math and sciences are liberal arts. Did you mean humanities?
@suzyq7 - The problem with artificially capping classes at 19, 29, 39 … just to improve rankings, is that students can be prevented from taking a course that they would like to take. It is hard to argue that a course with 19 offers a better classroom experience than one with 23. It would be even harder to argue that a course capped at 19 with a wait list of 4 results in a higher quality experience (for all students interested in taking the course) than a class with 23 students.
@Sue22 Non stem.
I never did understsnf the obsession with small class sizes. The only factor I care about is quality of teaching, and that is not generally related to class size. Furthermore, not every student wants all of their classes to be small seminars. Nor should all courses be taught as small seminars.
@itsgettingreal17
I think it depends on what kind of learning experience you and the college are after.
If you feel you learn best from lecture classes, fine.
The obsession (if you want to call it that) isn’t necessarily with small size per se but with a certain kind of liberal education, one that depends on discussion, Socratic mentoring, primary source materials, hands-on lab or field work, and many writing assignments. That kind of experience is hard to manage with classes over a certain size.
Lectures are fine for communicating information or the perspectives and approaches of an experienced teacher. However, in many cases I’d prefer to just read the book. That way, one can pause, make margin notes, or consult reference materials. One big advantage of lectures is that they can support question-and-answer. However, that too may be hard to manage if the class is too big.
It is costly to maintain small classes, not only in terms of dollars but also in terms of professors’ time. A distinguished professor (whose time is most valuable) can reach many more students in a big lecture. Even some of the richest, most selective universities have some (maybe many) big lecture classes. Still, many other universities (not just the most prestigious ones) also offer many small classes especially at the intermediate, advanced undergrad, or graduate levels.
There are definitely challenges and inconsistencies in how schools measure and report class size averages or distributions. If you think highly-ranked schools are just gaming the system by reporting small class sizes, go visit the schools that interest you. Read student reviews. Often you can look up actual enrollment numbers, for the courses you care about, in online schedules. But all that is immaterial if you don’t care about class size.
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There are profs who are amazing lecturers and whose classes are SRO because everyone would rather listen to them than hear classates expound on their ideas. You may not forge any connection with them, but you’ll be sure to attend class.
There are other kinds of classes (and professors) where being able to participate and connect with a prof is invaluable. You probably don’t want a TA working on your creative writing if you chose the class for the prof. You may be more engaged in some classes if there is more debate and exchange. And a good TA for calculus may be just the ticket to mastering it. If you have trouble with focus, you may absolutely need participation in class regardless.
As with everything, it depends.
Years ago, I took a ton of classes with my advisor, who was perhaps the #1 expert in his field. By senior year, most classes I took with him had fewer than 10 students, yet he still lectured at each - just in a small room rather than an auditorium. So small doesn’t necessarily mean participative. (Yes, he knew me and wrote me great recs for grad school, so there was that!)
I agree that small doesn’t necessarily mean participative. While I was an undergrad, I spent a term at another college. The classes I took at this other, very famous school were quite small (as many were at my alma mater). A big difference was that my professors at the 2nd school tended to stand and lecture. Professors at my alma mater rarely did. Their role was to ask leading questions, draw out the shrinking violets, and keep the bloviators from bloviating. Yes, part of the process was listening to classmates. After the first terms, they tended to “expound on their ideas” less frequently, and more frequently engage in genuine give-and-take discussion. One story I’ve heard is that … in those days, anyway … many Ivy professors hesitated to embarrass a student, for fear s/he was the child of a major donor/Senator/celebrity. Professors at my alma mater did not hesitate. Decades later, it still stings to remember a time or two that a professor sarcastically called BS on something I said, in front of a room full of my peers. This is why I laugh when I hear people refer to the “hand holding” one gets from small classes and low S:F ratios. For me, it was more about being challenged.
When I hear the way some public figures talk (or tweet), it strikes me that they must never have learned from experiences like that.
It’s hard to deny value of smaller classes and colleges.
One point to be noted is similar percentage of small classes in small LACs and many top colleges. One usually assumes all classes are small at LACs.
I’ll say it again. Without knowing how many large classes a school has the small class stat is not terribly useful. Let’s say every department has 10 classes.
At school A, 9 classes have 10 students each, one has 500. At school A any one student’s chance of being in a 500 student class is 84.75%; the chance of being in a 10 student class is 15.25%.
At school B, 9 classes have 10 students each, one has 30. At school B any one student’s chance of being in a 30 student class is 25%; the chance of being in a 10 student class is 75%.
Each has the same percentage of very small classes, but the difference in a student’s chance of being in one is huge. I think there’s a place for large lectures, but to pretend that all that matters is the % of small classes avoids basic mathematics.
I would say that the number of large classes is comparable at each of these elite schools so the example of School A vs B is not terribly useful.