Elite LAC or State University?

College Search & Selection
41

OP you have gotten great advice. Forgive my overstepping but I can say that for one of our kids, I would suggest the Bowdoin route and for our other student, the no loans route. There is no wrong or right answer, I think that the pros and cons have been laid out and now it comes down to what type of experience you want – and what level of economic risk / frugality you are comfortable with.

The loans do sound high, but I do wonder if you couldn’t mitigate them. You haven’t wanted to bring your family’s financial situation into this thread so I respect that. BUT…if your parents are estimated as being able to come up with 6500 a year maybe there are some resources there. If you worked and scraped together some money I could see your taking out only the subsidized amount. I know one of our two students would have gone that route.

Of course I certainly understand the thought that, why would you pay off loans when you can get an education for free – and again for one of our kids I can tell you hands down that would have been the decision, both on her part and ours. Having no loans so you can do grad school without worry…money to do internships, travel…not being stressed all the time and always counting your change – I get it.

Both are great options and I am just hoping you will let us know what you decide.

42

You said that your parents are paying private school tuition for a sibling. Maybe now that you are going to college this private school will give them some financial aid that they didn’t get before

43

Pardon my previous typos. I was using my phone and try to eat a gyro salad.

44

This may be a small point at this stage, but midwestmomofboys is incorrect in post #35. Many of the top law schools offer merit aid. In fact, other than Yale, Harvard and Stanford, I believe all the rest of the T14 offer generous merit aid to top applicants. For example, Duke offers the Mordecai, Columbia offers the Butler and the Hamilton, and Northwestern offers $150,000 to those accepted through the ED process.

45

To my mind, the top law schools are Harvard, Yale and Stanford, and those are the school’s the OP mentioned.

46

@midatlmom The info in post #35 is correct. For those that do award scholarships, most are largely based on financial need. Merit is found at the lower ranked schools and come with high GPA/rank requirements for renewal.

47

itsgettingreal17 -

You might want to take a look at this link from 2011 http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=144338
I personally know a student who just received a full ride from Columbia Law School (I think it was the Hamilton) on a merit basis and I’ve known several who were offered merit money at U Chicago Law. I’m not sure where you get your info from, but I can assure you that in order to guarantee high LSAT scores in this era of shrinking law school enrollment, many of the T14 law schools (other than YHS) offer such merit aid. Take a look at this link to the Darrow at U Michigan https://www.law.umich.edu/prospectivestudents/darrows/Pages/default.aspx and the Rubenstein at Chicago Law http://www.law.uchicago.edu/node/3762

As you can see from the descriptions, they are primarily merit-based.

48

I reviewed the link and most have need as a component explicitly stated and those that don’t, need is a strong consideration. Btdt.

(The Hamilton is full tuition not full ride).

49

itsgettingreal17

Here’s what U Michigan says:

Here’s what U Chicago says about the Rubenstein:

Here’s what Penn says:

Here’s a reference to the Northwestern ED program:

Here’s what Duke’s Mordecai says:

Here’s info on Berkeley’s Eltse scholarship:

Here’s what NYU’s Vanderbilt says:

And if you want to do public interest law, some of these schools provide merit scholarships.

You are right that the Hamilton is full tuition, not full ride.

50

While T14 schools outside the top 3 give merit, the broader issue for the OP is whether, as someone whose career goals are very likely to include law school, should consider undergrad debt on top of prospective law school debt. Substantial loans are still the norm in T14 law schools – while full merit awards etc. may exist, it is not the way most law students get though law school. Betting, or hoping, that in 4+ years the OP may be fortunate enough to not only get into a T14 school but also get substantial merit award in order to have smaller loan burden, is a lot to ask.

51

OP, I understand the main differences between LACs and state schools and their relative advantages. In case it has not yet been posted:

LACs:

  • More personal attention/support
  • Smaller classes (especially in your gen ed classes, prior to entering your major)
  • Easier access to professors
  • Fewer discussions and labs taught by TAs

State schools:

  • More programs and classes available
  • More research goes on, so more research opportunities are available (though perhaps more competition for spots as well…)
  • More national and global name recognition

In your case you have an elite LAC and a top-20 public U vying for your presence.

If your goal is law school, you don’t really have to worry about the name of the school as much, as ucbalumnus has said – you need a solid GPA and LSAT score.

Bowdoin has more prestige, but OSU is more widely known – forget those things. Both are known well enough by any law school adcom.

You obviously won’t need Business or Engineering or any other major that OSU offers but Bowdoin does not, so that takes away OSU’s “more programs and classes” advantage as it applies to you.

You won’t likely be going into any research roles if you are majoring in one of the humanities or social sciences, so that factor is a (virtual) non-starter too.

So really, the questions are these:
–> Which campus, social vibe and surrounding environment do you prefer?
–> Would you prefer the smaller classes, greater access to profs and more personal attention at Bowdoin or the relative anonymity of OSU?

If the answer to both of these questions is “Bowdoin” then that means, to me, that Bowdoin is a better fit for everything but the cost.

And at just over $8k per year, as others have said, Bowdoin would be a bargain. You would simply have to decide if the superior fit of Bowdoin is worth that extra money.

On the other hand, if you answered “Ohio State” to either of those questions, I think the cost advantage would be enough to make OSU the pick.

52

@prezbucky I would add that, the anonymity vs. attention thing can be more nuanced. My older one is at UW, a double major in Humanities and Social Sciences, and has appreciated that ability to choose when to get close to faculty as opposed to always being in a small, “on your toes” setting. He has close relationships with faculty from his Honors sections and thesis advisor, and has gotten strong recommendations for internships, funding etc. from them. He wanted the opportunity to fade into the background when he chose and to chart his own course without a lot of intervention and handholding. So, “big” can mean the choice when to be part of the woodwork and when to shine. It certainly requires independence, determination and focus to navigate gen eds and major requirements, and to seek out the faculty for advising, research etc.

53

@Midwestmomofboys

If you are talking about the University of Wisconsin, your S and I probably shared some pretty similar experiences – I too am a Badger.

I realize that two-sentence bullet points cannot possibly provide info on all likely outcomes and experiences, which is why I appreciate posts like yours.

I too enjoyed the ability to fade out at UW if something wasn’t convenient or my cup of tea… or if I was just having a rough day, not feeling well, etc. That liberty is really nice. If you want to be a few minutes late to your Psych 101 lecture, nobody will notice or care. But without discipline, some kids flunk out: allowed to drift like a butterfly, they do, and decide that beer or the beach (lol, the terrace I guess… at UW) is more important than class.

For a sense of family/roots, I took part in Concert Choir (one of the few non-Music majors in it) and a fraternity. Those were my families, along with a handful of friends I made through discussion sections or labs.

54

@prezbucky Yup, my kid is at Wisconsin and, I’m sure, enjoys the ability to slip in late to class (or not at all, especially last week, when it sounds like the weather was gorgeous). My husband and I both went to LACs, and my younger one is headed to a LAC next fall. The older one visited LACs, but was transformed when he stepped onto campus at UW – it felt like a smorgasbord of opportunities and people, and he found his own smaller community through greek life, which works for him, but again is something outside our experience.

It’s all about finding the right environment, which is why these conversations about whether the costs are worth it, are so tough to contribute to meaningfully.

For the OP, there is no wrong choice here, it’s about figuring out what is right for you, given the educational and financial considerations and opportunities.

55

I agree that it comes down to fit. I know a lot of kids at OSU and all are happy there, but there isn’t a ton of guidance and classes are huge until around junior year.

I also agree that a close look at what “tuition, room and board” means at OSU is in order…fees and other misc expenses can be a lot esp at public schools whereas elite LACs tend to include everything in their COA, including travel and books.

I suspect Bowdoin students spend most of their time on campus,eating, partying, working, etc but I know OSU students are out and about in Columbus and that can be costly and hard if you don’t have the funds to keep up.

Someone posted this WSJ list of top feeders to top law, med and grad schools and while I see some serious issues with it (few top schools surveyed, top students tend to be at top shcools, etc), you may care to see anyway because Bowdoin is on it: http://hubpages.com/education/Wall-Street-Journal-College-Rankings-The-Full-List-and-Rating-Criteria

56

Thank you everyone for all of the suggestions and advice. The OSU scholarship covers tuition, room&board, and fees–the entire cost of attendance. And to @prezbucky I answered Ohio State to your first question, and Bowdoin to the second, maybe that indicates OSU is the smarter choice.

To others, I don’t want to go to Bowdoin to feel as if my work in high school is finally be validated. I know I worked hard and I don’t need a college ranking to affirm that. Rather, I want to go to Bowdoin for the intellectual engagement-- I find great pleasure in the cultivation of my mind. Bowdoin’s academics and classes seem to welcome that, while OSU doesn’t as much. I don’t want to go to OSU and transform into a student that is good at taking seminar notes, and taking multiple choice tests. In regards to their honors program, I know several classmates who coasted during high school and got accepted into the Honors program.

Bowdoin’s social scene was lackluster to me, and seemed to be filled with pretentiousness. During my days at Bowdoin, I often felt like I was in a different world or twilight zone. Brunswick, Maine felt very remote. But many say that you fall in love with the campus as you attend… I don’t know

57

Congrats on deciding, OP.

It’s now up to you to put in the work necessary to achieve what you desire. Be advised that at a school like OSU, it’s ok to change your mind/major. During your first two years, try to take a nice broad base of classes: Math/Stats, Chem/Bio/Physics, Phil/Hist/Anth, Soc/Psych, English/Lit/Classics, Communications/Linguistics, Foreign Language(s), and Economics. These will give you a strong base from which to launch into your major - any major, really.

(and… have some fun. Buckeyes formed en masse tend to become elite football and pretty good basketball teams, and as a student you are privy to vastly discounted tickets.)

58

@prezbucky I haven’t decided yet.

59

I re-read your post and spent the past ten minutes changing my post, but I failed to meet the time marker.

I’ll reiterate that you can’t go wrong here if you pick the better fit. For your stated purposes, both are fine. Pick the better fit. If they are equal and you cannot decide, go with the lower cost at OSU.

60

OP - as others have said, there is no right or wrong here. As someone with a relative who recently graduated from Bowdoin, I will say that he had a wonderful experience at the school. He was a member of a relatively small department and the encouragement and opportunities he received were extraordinary. He was able to do research, to work closely with professors and he is now in an excellent phd program. Socially, he was somewhat awkward, but he found people that he was comfortable with and made close friends.

One of the reasons I am a fan of small LACs and/or school with wonderful undergraduate teaching is because of the close relationship you can develop with professors. Not only does it make your academic experience at college special, but from a pragmatic standpoint, you have professors who will give you strong recommendations, suggest professional and career options you might not have thought of and guide you. Moreover, your classes are generally small and most students are not phoning it in - they are truly participating and their insights can often be meaningful. And, while not always the case, the administration usually has the money and time to think about programs and facilities that will add to student comfort and scholarship.

I don’t know anything about OSU and it is entirely possible that all of that exists at the school; what I can say is that it definitely exists at Bowdoin.