How do the Ivy’s and other elite universities rank by rigor? Basically if the same student was dropped in each of those schools, how difficult would he/she find it? The particular student I have in mind is a math kid who will probably end up majoring in Math or Economics, but could end up in a hard science too.
I know that all of these schools are covering difficult material, and doing it quickly because the average student is incredibly bright. But is a student who maybe has to study 3 hours a day at Penn having to study 6 hours a day at Princeton and still falling behind? I don’t necessarily care about that specific example, but in general that’s what I want to know.
I’d guess it’s fairly hard to know since not many students have transferred between Ivies in undergrad to compare difficulty. You could look at the Ivies with the highest average GPA. Last time I looked Princeton was the biggest deflator and Brown had a really high average GPA.
Does grade inflation matter? Are you asking, ‘Are you presented with more material and thus have more to learn in a comparable class from one school to another?’ or are you asking, ‘Will the same amount of studying in comparable classes get you different grades and which schools get you the lowest grades and which the highest?’
For example, Calc I at UPenn (MATH 104) covers much more material than Calc I at Princeton (MAT 103). UPenn’s Calc II (Math 114) is comparable to Princeton’s Calc III (MAT 201). But I believe getting an A in UPenn’s classes is easier than getting an A in Princeton’s.
All of the schools (I believe) you’re asking about are rigorous. You will have to spend hours per day working/studying, but you will also have some time for activities/fun.
As you might expect, some students will find it easier than others. What I feel is different about students at very challenging schools is that they enjoy the work (as a generalization). Given a chance to be in the lab or play a video game…they usually opt for the lab. They really go deep into their studies and enjoy being around others who do the same.
Relative rigor between ivies or highly selective schools is all based on the experiences and commitment of others. It shouldn’t materially impact your decision. It’s more important that you like the students and feel like they’re your type of people.
I can only give you an answer based on my son’s experience (Stanford CS major, minor in mathematics) . He has touched bases with several HS friends going to state universities and he his spending considerably more time in all of his classes. The pace is faster and the depth is greater. He sees it as a badge of honor.
Math at the junior/senior level will be theory and proof oriented in courses like real analysis and abstract algebra. Expect to find rigor there.
Economics has some variation, even among more selective colleges. Typical economics math requirement and usage (in intermediate economics and econometrics) is a year of single variable calculus and a semester of statistics. Some colleges offer more math intensive courses requiring multivariable calculus and/or linear algebra, either as an option or as a requirement. Those considering PhD study in economics should consider more advanced math and statistics courses like real analysis, calculus-based probability theory, etc. anyway.
For purposes of this discussion I don’t care about grade inflation. I also don’t care about how well the students are prepared for a career, at this level they all are. And I know these schools are all more rigorous than the typical state school down the road.
For a student of a specific ability, how hard are the different Ivy’s and other elites? How much time will be taken up by studying?
If you took ONE PARTICULAR student and cloned him, which Universities would be the most difficult for him to do well in and which would be the easiest? Not necessarily get a 4.0, but to be a middle of the pack student who doesn’t particularly stand out on the top or bottom end. Maybe that’s the way I should have said it in the first place.
Are his friends more intelligent? Is your son an athlete and admitted to Stanford at the lower end of their acceptance levels?
Not meant to attack anyone…but relative responses based on unknown abilities is pointless. Best suggestion for OP…look at lists published by Niche and others. Individual interactions are often useful…but not in this case. Too many factors.
@TomSrOfBoston I guess the point is that differences are there, but to what extent. When asked about two other friends (MIT-CSE and Harvard-BME) the answer was study time was about the same. Probably hard to discern differences, if any, between 2 elite programs. I’d be surprised if there were significant differences.
Then grade inflation is important. All things being equal a kid most likely would get different grades at different schools though they’d learn exactly the same amount. Which of the schools is more rigorous?
^^That might be the best case scenario. Clone #1 in the most rigorous school might learn less while at the same time getting a lower grade than clone #2 in the less rigorous school. In that case you might say clone #2 is better off. This aligns with the “find your best match” approach to picking a school.
Penn basically renumbered the usual calculus 2 and 3 as calculus 1 and 2, with the usual calculus 1 course as an “introduction to calculus” course (Math 103, see https://www.math.upenn.edu/undergraduate/advice-new-students ). They seem to have the expectation that new frosh have had at least calculus AB in high school.
I recently came across the following Ivy League news items that caught my interest. CAVEAT: the following may NOT mean anything except for the obvious gender difference in their GPA performances which in itself is quite interesting. The ranking is NOT necessarily an indicator of comparative academic “rigor” especially with all different majors thrown in together. The given samples are from all together 82 student-athletes and only student-athletes AND limited only to one sport program. Nevertheless, the reason why these rankings caught my interest is because they quite nicely line up with my own loose formations in my mind based on anecdotal gathering of information. Your thoughts?
All eight Ivy League women’s swimming & diving programs and 34 student-athletes earned Scholar All-America recognition from the College Swimming & Diving Coaches Association of America (CSCAA), as announced on June 21. The team average GPA ranking:
All eight Ivy League men’s swimming & diving programs and 48 student-athletes earned Scholar All-America recognition from the College Swimming & Diving Coaches Association of America (CSCAA), as announced on June 21.
The team average GPA ranking:
Years ago, Boalt Hall (UCBerkeley’s law school) used to “massage” applicants’ GPAs based on how hard it was to get an A at the applicants’ undergrad schools. The harder it was deemed to get an A, the more the applicant’s GPA was adjusted upward. Here’s the chart:
Another way to look at this is how hard is it for a student at the bottom of GPA/Test Scores to find less rigorous course to make it through without having to spend all his/her time studying. All the schools have more and less rigorous courses for students to pick. For example, a student that had AP Calc BC in HS entering Princeton and wishing to take more math could take MAT 175 - Basic Multivariable Calculus for Economics & Life Sciences or Math 201 - Multivariable Calc or Math 203 - Adv Multivariable Calc or Math 215 Honor’s Analysis in a single variable. The last is generally for perspective Math majors, MAT 203 for Physics and Engineering majors but a student could choose the rigor they wanted. It’s probably easier to find less rigorous courses at Stanford and Duke than at MIT and Chicago.
@ucbalumnus idk about that. UNC had a heavier gen ed focus and the lowest grade I ever got in one of those was an A-. Gen eds are easy cause you take anthropology, poli sci, english, classics, etc.