embarassing/infuriating situation (c/p)

Parents Forum
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<p>Is your son the one who’s interested in RIT or WPI or is it you? If it’s him, show him the stats for both schools and explain that it’s up to him to get in and tell him how much you can help him out.</p>

<p>My rising senior son is a very bright young man who doesn’t believe in studying or doing HW. He refused a prep course and would not even do the questions on line. He went from a 168 PSAT sophomore year to a 207 junior year, which gets him commended status in our state. I am very pleased. He got a 30 cold on his ACT, did not even look at the format and a 1350 on the SAT V + M (he has a writing disability but refuses extra time, so we are only looking at schools which don’t count the writing part). </p>

<p>He has FINALLY begun to think about college. We went on college board and looked at a couple of schools that met his criteria - he saw that he was solidly in the middle 50% and said “I guess I’d better take those tests over again…”</p>

<p>If I tried to make him study, it would not work. I have given up and now that I have - he is starting to work harder.</p>

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<p>My son was an NMF and is attending college on a full tuition scholarship. He spent exactly one hour on formal test prep work and that was reading about how to take the test.</p>

<p>I’m guessing this is going to be an unpopular opinion here but instead of emphasizing formal prep work, we encouraged him to keep reading for pleasure and to keep up with his classes, which he did. We put no pressure on him and let it play out. </p>

<p>I’ve seen evidence that prep courses can raise scores (or course, just taking the test again also raises scores) but my hunch is that providing a balance to the “teach to the test” pressure that teachers are under can also raise scores.</p>

<p>Edited to add: I would be very careful to make sure he understands that the punishment is for the cheating (if you do punish him) and make the PSAT a completely separate thing.</p>

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<p>First this:</p>

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<p>then this:</p>

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<p>You did not indicate you were being sarcastic so how could you not expect people to post negatively?</p>

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<p>Haters? did you read your original post?

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<p>The fact that you have been MAKING him take practice tests is ridicilous. He is in highschool, he probably has some ideas what he wants to do after high school.</p>

<p>If he wanted to go to a big school, he would prepare himself and without cheating and stuff. That’s really not cool. If my parents were trying to do something like that, oh my…</p>

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<p>Darn, lost my post.</p>

<p>To net it out, there are few NMF scholarships that will beat the deals at state schools universities. Certainly NMF opens a few more doors, but not enough to go crazy over PSAT prep.</p>

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<p>*We are not seriously counting on him to support us. We do just fine, thank you, and have our retirement secure.</p>

<p>I will take the well-intentioned advice and leave the haters behind. Thanks.*</p>

<p>Well, you probably think I’m one of the “haters,” but you have to OWN that you stated that you were depending on him to support you in your old age. Were we supposed to know that you were - what? - being silly? </p>

<p>If someone came to YOU a psychologist and they said, “I hit my kid 4 times a day,” and then you reacted negatively… and then the person said, “Oh, I don’t do that…and you’re a hater for getting on my case,” you’d be shaking your head!!! </p>

<p>Don’t create “haters” by posting things that aren’t true!!! </p>

<p>End of scolding… :)</p>

<p>Our situation is that we have not saved for college. He can go for free where I teach, but we don’t have an engineering program. The plan was for him to get a tuition exchange (the program my school is a part of) scholarship and go to WPI or RIT on full tuition. Several other schools on the list offer scholarships but there are dramatically fewer of them offered and it doesn’t seem like he will be competitive now. Some other schools on the list offer great NMF scholarships (like Drexel). We will not qualify for FAFSA type aid. I only got my hopes up about the NMF schools because his practice tests had been so great.</p>

<p>Ok…now that you’ve told the story, we can be helpful. Since your son tests well, this test is not his only chance for a big merit scholarship. Yes, with NMF, he can get some great scholarships. :slight_smile: </p>

<p>But, even if he doesn’t make NMF (he could feel tired that day and just screw up), there are many schools that give large merit scholarships for high SAT or ACT scores…which he probably will do since you say he tests well. :)</p>

<p>Don’t beat yourself up, many parents haven’t saved much/anything for college. Raising kids is expensive and saving for college sometimes can’t happen. At least you have a child who CAN test well…imagine the frustration for those whose children can’t. :(</p>

<p>Now…do some calculating…how much CAN you contribute for college? If your son got free tuition somewhere, could you pay for room, board, books, etc? That could run from about $12k-15k depending on the school. </p>

<p>BTW…have him take the SAT in October. If it’s shortly before the PSAT, that will be good practice for stamina. Also, have him take the ACT in October…get him a practice book for that.</p>

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<p>I am a rising senior, and my parents never forced me to study or do any SAT prep. I have felt a lot less pressure without their unrealistic expectations hovering over me; I have set enough unrealistic expectations on myself. That being said, not every student studies well on his own. I have my own motivations, so I have a 3.8+ GPA (haven’t gotten my junior year report card yet) and 2070 SAT after studying and initially scoring a 1900 on a practice SAT. I first took a practice test online to identify my weaknesses (data analysis vs overall math), then I dedicated an hour a day to studying a specific section. Over-studying is actually detrimental because it puts too much pressure on the test-taker, and it is hard to focus when encountered with countless questions a day. It’s almost like being assigned 100 homework questions versus 10. I would do the 100 just to get it finished, but I would actually learn with the 10.</p>

<p>My twin brother, on the other hand, is not motivated academically, so my parents had him research colleges that interested him, so that he set a goal for himself. Setting a goal for himself let him feel more free and less pressured because he didn’t feel like his parents or teachers or counselors were forcing him to study or expecting him to do well and that if he didn’t do well, he would be a failure. With some gentle reminders from my parents (Did you study today? How are you doing on the CR section?) and a not-so-good SAT score, he is studying for himself. Sometimes, unfortunately, we, as children, have to mistakes, but we do learn. Also, putting students like my twin brother in a box would have made him rebel and possibly not study at all.</p>

<p>My advice to you (coming from a student’s perspective) is to guide him in the right path. Sometimes, it is necessary to force him to study for his own good, but don’t take it to such an extreme level that it is detrimental to his own development.</p>

<p>As for the punishment, don’t do it. He will have to study a lot more in the upcoming years for high school and college, and he probably won’t want to do it, anyway. You don’t want him to have such a strong negative association with studying. Also, some of my friends, who would have studied anyway, have been forced by punishment to study, but they didn’t. I can’t explain it because I’ve never been punished in such a way, but you might have the opposite effect than what you intended.</p>

<p>Hope this helped, and sorry for the long post.</p>

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<p>It is unlikely that your son–unless he has a history of 99% standardized test scores and something went wrong with this soph. PSAT-- will reach NMSF status-- prepping or not. (Yes, there are exceptions, but the 30+ points he needs is about twice the average gain from soph to junior test.)</p>

<p>I can understand your disappointment since you got your hopes up based on the higher scores he got while cheating. Maybe your son did this to make you happy because he could tell it was important to you.</p>

<p>Sit him down at the table with the bubble sheet/pencil/test and time him yourself. And go over the questions/answers with him. If he doesn’t go over the missed questions thoroughly to see how he can avoid making the same types of mistakes on the next test, there is no point in spending time prepping. If you run out of Blue Book tests, Kaplan has PSAT/SAT prep books that I have found helpful/accurate in scores. (I have been doing test prep for 8 years.) While reading in general is important (I recommend WSJ), taking more practice tests and becoming very, very familiar with the test itself (following tips in prep books, knowing the types of questions that will always appear on the test, etc.) is more likely to increase his score. Good luck.</p>

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<p>mom2collegekids posted: </p>

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<p>Could you point me to some of those schools, or maybe to a CC thread on that topic? My D’s best friend just missed our state’s NMSF cutoff but has an almost-perfect SAT superscore. She’s a straight-A student, and has great ECs, too. We’re all hoping that one-bad-day-last-October won’t take her out of the running for merit aid. </p>

<p>Thanks in advance for any pointers!</p>

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<p>This is what worked for us. I asked S to commit to 15-30 minutes of studying 5 days a week in the 3 months leading up to the test. He only worked on those types of problems he was having difficulty with. He did no CR because we knew he would test well on that. He only did the type of math problems he tended to get wrong. I would correct the problems and then we would go over the ones he answered incorrectly. The next few days we would focus on those types of problems til he got them all correct and we would move one. </p>

<p>By asking him to commit to 15-30 minutes a day, he didn’t feel overwhelmed. And we never went beyond 30 minutes.</p>

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<p>mihcal1 - S went to Jesuit school and as a consequence applied to a fair number of Jesuit colleges, they all gave a good amount of merit for high SAT’s and mediocre grades. He applied to other schools too, but we knew the Jesuit schools would be generous. With your D’s great grades and great SAT’s she could probably get good merit at many schools. I would look at the common data set and focus on schools where your D is in the upper 25% of applicants stat wise. We started by finding schools that offered S’s intended major. Then looked at stats and then looked at merit scholarships they offered.</p>

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<p>Now I know you mean well, but I really feel you are giving your son tremendous pressure to achieve. You’ve not only already researched which schools are a good match, but you went so far as to see what kind of NMF scores he’ll need to get in. Isn’t this kinda cart-before-the-horse territory?</p>

<p>It is no wonder why you were furious. You invested your research time based on false hopes. Have you talked to your son about what he wants, where he wants to go, what he’ll need to get there? And what are the alternatives if he doesn’t achieve NMF? Will he feel like a failure? Maybe some of these colleges have great FA support anyway.</p>

<p>off topic: I never realized there was another similar name as mine (limabeans01) on this forum. So sad.</p>

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<p>No offense, really, but parents like this drive me crazy. If your kid doesn’t want to be NMF, don’t make him. He won’t be motivated or feel proud if he reaches YOUR goal. Let him set his own goals. He cheated because he doesn’t want that, he just wants to please you. Give him time and space to focus on what he wants and that could be just as beneficial in the long run. Remember, you wont be there to help him during the PSAT/SAT so if he doesn’t learn on his own, all your attempts to help will be useless. Talk to him about what it could mean if he does do well Ans how much it will help his future by quit pushing your poor kid. And stop researching colleges for him. He can do it himself. No one will be there to take care of him in college.</p>

<p>Sent from my Vortex using CC App</p>

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<p>mihcal…I sent you a PM so as not to derail the thread. :)</p>

<p>but for the OP, too, here’s a link…
Important links to Merit Scholarships given for stats… </p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/848226-important-links-automatic-guaranteed-merit-scholarships.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/financial-aid-scholarships/848226-important-links-automatic-guaranteed-merit-scholarships.html&lt;/a&gt; </p>

<p>Wow…2 Limabeans…</p>

<p>And there is a Momom2 and a Mamom…very confusing</p>

<p>Sorry to any that I mix up!</p>

<p>S went to Jesuit school and as a consequence applied to a fair number of Jesuit colleges, they all gave a good amount of merit for high SAT’s and mediocre grades.</p>

<p>correct me if I’m wrong, but it seemed to me that the Jesuits gave “bonus scholarships” (so to speak) to grads from Jesuit high schools. So, almost an added $10k per year just because you went to a Jesuit High (kind of a pay back for high school tuition…lol)</p>

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<p>Very painful to see a parent trying to cram into one summer (or even one year, if he hadn’t cheated) the preparation that this kid should have had over the last several years. You can’t make a kid into a reader by having him read an hour or two over one summer. The kids who do well in CR are generally the ones who have been avid readers since they could carry a book around. I have a sophomore who scored a 213 on PSAT with zero prep last year, except that she had taken the SAT in middle school as part of a talent search (but no prep for that, either). And a big part of that score is because she read for hours as a kid, and never goes anywhere without a book even now. But it is the result of literally thousands of hours of reading, I think. And even with that soph PSAT, we are not counting on her being a NMF – great if she is, and she will do some prep this fall. But it is really not a realistic strategy to use to plan on paying for college.</p>

<p>That said, PSAT/SAT scores can be raised somewhat by prep and studying. But it feels like you are in panic mode and are punishing your kid because you did not save for college… you are expecting him to dig out of a hole that you created.</p>

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<p>All I can say to the OP is —Ugh. Glad you’re not my mom. At least she never threatened to rip my head off, privately OR in a public forum. You are a psychologist? Really?</p>

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<p>Stepping out of my mom role (my kid never prepped) and into my teacher hat, your son could very well have learned more from “cheating” than from marking the wrong answers. I know that even educators have a lot of dissonance with this, but there is formative assessment, which is meant to give the student a view of where they stand with regard to mastery of material so that they know better what they need to work on. </p>

<p>If your son looked at the questions, selected a response, and then looked to the online key and reflected on why any answers were incorrect, he WAS learning. Since the practice tests are formative in nature, or assessing what knowledge he has acquired to date and guiding his future studies, and not summative, or measuring the final mastery of the material, (that would arguably be the final SAT) then this is a very widely held practice and, in my experience, is much more valuable than taking the practice test and looking at the final score. </p>

<p>See an article here or google formative assessment for a wider view. The reflection component is key.</p>

<p>[The</a> Value of Formative Assessment | FairTest](<a href=“http://fairtest.org/value-formative-assessment-pdf]The”>The Value of Formative Assessment - Fairtest)</p>

<p>If, however, he was simply filling in the blanks to get it right and get you off his back, then he has indeed wasted a great deal of time and I would be irritated, but would probably agree that you were angry when you wrote that you would punish with 2-3 hours of practice daily. </p>

<p>Perhaps going through the reflection process with him, if he has not been doing it, would be ultimately more helpful and would model a skill that would be powerful later on. I suspect, though, that he has been doing this. He sounds like a great kid and probably had this form of assessment modeled at school. </p>

<p>Good luck! The end of high school can be a stressful time for parents and kiddos alike!</p>

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<p>Isn’t it part of the Xiggi method that you are supposed to take the correct answer and figure out what makes it the correct answer? Merely taking the practice tests doesn’t cut it. If he is taking the correct answer and learning from it, then he’s on the right track.</p>

<p>[But I agree–I hate lying…drives me nuts]</p>

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<p>Apologies if I made anyone mad, I only want what is best for everyone involved.</p>

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<p>Thank you all. Had a wonderful heart-to-heart tonight. My S is a great kid. I will back off on the studying, it will be up to him and I will be there for guidance. He is being punished for lying, but it does not involve studying. I appreciate all the positive input. I think all is well in our household tonight and we have reached accord. I don’t care if he is a software engineer or a trash collector. He is my kid and I love him immensely!!!</p>